AI Adoption, Supply Chain & Social Selling | Heather Sye

Behind the code.

Behind the co. [music and singing]

Behind the co. [music and singing] That's where the future grows.

That's where the future grows. Welcome to behind the code. My name is

Welcome to behind the code. My name is Zit and with me today I have founder and

Zit and with me today I have founder and go to market leader Heather Sai. Welcome

go to market leader Heather Sai. Welcome to the show Heather.

to the show Heather. Thanks EMTT. Great to be here.

Thanks EMTT. Great to be here. Really appreciate you joining. Uh if you

Really appreciate you joining. Uh if you don't mind just giving a little intro

don't mind just giving a little intro about yourself that'd be great.

about yourself that'd be great. For sure. Um I'm Heather. Um I'm

For sure. Um I'm Heather. Um I'm Canadian. grew up, born and raised out

Canadian. grew up, born and raised out just outside of Vancouver, Canada. And I

just outside of Vancouver, Canada. And I help uh founders of early safe startups

help uh founders of early safe startups go to market, build social selling

go to market, build social selling processes, really understand how to

processes, really understand how to bring their technology or their product

bring their technology or their product to the rest of the world.

to the rest of the world. Amazing. That is a a highly soughtafter

Amazing. That is a a highly soughtafter skill at this time.

skill at this time. I hope so.

I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we're going to get

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we're going to get into that a little bit uh later in in

into that a little bit uh later in in our conversation, but if we could start

our conversation, but if we could start out just on the operational side of

out just on the operational side of supply chain and AI where you've spent

supply chain and AI where you've spent the last bit of your your time working

the last bit of your your time working on that area. I'm curious like what

on that area. I'm curious like what pulled you into that space.

pulled you into that space. Yeah. Um, so I have been working in in

Yeah. Um, so I have been working in in technology and in a leadership capacity

technology and in a leadership capacity now for uh about 15 years. um not

now for uh about 15 years. um not specifically in supply chain but just

specifically in supply chain but just around artificial intelligence. Um so it

around artificial intelligence. Um so it just kind of progressed from artificial

just kind of progressed from artificial intelligence in banking and insurance um

intelligence in banking and insurance um over time it it kind of over overlapped

over time it it kind of over overlapped with supply chain and um just kind of

with supply chain and um just kind of fell into it so to speak.

fell into it so to speak. Got it. And that's a um pretty pretty

Got it. And that's a um pretty pretty long period of time working in

long period of time working in technology that's uh changed quite a bit

technology that's uh changed quite a bit over the last 10 year cycle or 15 year

over the last 10 year cycle or 15 year cycle especially in the last 3 years. Um

cycle especially in the last 3 years. Um what do you think is something and this

what do you think is something and this might be relevant to a lot of people

might be relevant to a lot of people listening in. What do you think people

listening in. What do you think people misunderstand at the enterprise level of

misunderstand at the enterprise level of how technology actually gets adopted?

how technology actually gets adopted? That's uh yeah um the the world of

That's uh yeah um the the world of technology is constantly evolving and so

technology is constantly evolving and so I think that's the number one thing to

I think that's the number one thing to to understand that there there's a lot

to understand that there there's a lot of innovation constantly happening and

of innovation constantly happening and the speed of innovation right now is

the speed of innovation right now is unlike any other time. So um your your

unlike any other time. So um your your ERPs or the technology that you'd be

ERPs or the technology that you'd be accustomed to over the last 10 years and

accustomed to over the last 10 years and might be comfortable with it's not

might be comfortable with it's not necessarily standing up to uh the way

necessarily standing up to uh the way other systems are working these days.

other systems are working these days. Hm. So, so I I guess there's almost like

Hm. So, so I I guess there's almost like a a clash in legacy um systems

a a clash in legacy um systems [clears throat] or systems understanding

[clears throat] or systems understanding versus trying to adopt how how

versus trying to adopt how how technology is working today. Um this is

technology is working today. Um this is a follow-up question. What do you think

a follow-up question. What do you think is like a best practice people can use

is like a best practice people can use to overcome that hurdle uh inside a

to overcome that hurdle uh inside a inside a large enterprise?

inside a large enterprise? There's a few things. Um number one is

There's a few things. Um number one is uh you know kind of leaning into in some

uh you know kind of leaning into in some capacity being an AI native company. Now

capacity being an AI native company. Now that doesn't mean that you have to run

that doesn't mean that you have to run like a startup or it doesn't mean you

like a startup or it doesn't mean you have to run like a tech company but just

have to run like a tech company but just understanding um how artificial

understanding um how artificial intelligence works and looking at

intelligence works and looking at different ways to weave in technology

different ways to weave in technology throughout various forms of processes.

throughout various forms of processes. not just kind of bolting it on to um

not just kind of bolting it on to um what you're already doing be big

what you're already doing be big begrudgingly. Um and so what I what I

begrudgingly. Um and so what I what I mean by that is really taking a top-

mean by that is really taking a top- down approach to saying a technology is

down approach to saying a technology is is here and we're leaning into it. We're

is here and we're leaning into it. We're we're a company uh that likes to test

we're a company uh that likes to test things that likes to explore um and and

things that likes to explore um and and see what works. So I I guess there's

see what works. So I I guess there's like something to take and just drawing

like something to take and just drawing on your experience because you've been

on your experience because you've been at later stage companies and regulated

at later stage companies and regulated industries like banking and then with

industries like banking and then with startups um would you say like that's

startups um would you say like that's the piece you'd pick out as a common

the piece you'd pick out as a common thread like remaining with like a

thread like remaining with like a learner's mind and being open to

learner's mind and being open to experiment?

experiment? That's uh certainly certainly one piece.

That's uh certainly certainly one piece. Um I think it goes a long way having

Um I think it goes a long way having leaders kind of lead from the front and

leaders kind of lead from the front and and having that learner um that open

and having that learner um that open mindset to to new things.

mindset to to new things. Um but then it's also uh bring on other

Um but then it's also uh bring on other people maybe externally that uh are

people maybe externally that uh are subject matter experts that can support

subject matter experts that can support that growth and that transition into a a

that growth and that transition into a a more modern organization. M so like

more modern organization. M so like there's a value to I guess have someone

there's a value to I guess have someone with a narrow skill set that you can

with a narrow skill set that you can bring in at least temporarily to maybe

bring in at least temporarily to maybe accelerate your organization.

accelerate your organization. Absolutely. And I've seen different

Absolutely. And I've seen different roles uh and how that plays out like

roles uh and how that plays out like there's um new roles like for deployed

there's um new roles like for deployed engineers or operators and essentially

engineers or operators and essentially their role is to support and execute on

their role is to support and execute on various forms of technological

various forms of technological transformation and support the

transformation and support the organization from kind of like a

organization from kind of like a middleman standpoint. Um I I found those

middleman standpoint. Um I I found those type of um um positions and and kind of

type of um um positions and and kind of adopting those personas within your

adopting those personas within your organization to be very very helpful.

organization to be very very helpful. And do do you think like or have you

And do do you think like or have you experienced um there are different

experienced um there are different groups inside an organization that have

groups inside an organization that have uh like a very maybe polarized opinion

uh like a very maybe polarized opinion on bringing in an external operator and

on bringing in an external operator and and if so like how do you get over that?

and if so like how do you get over that? Sometimes you can't. So, I like to work

Sometimes you can't. So, I like to work with organizations that um I don't

with organizations that um I don't necessarily have to force up the hill.

necessarily have to force up the hill. Um you know, maybe they're not early

Um you know, maybe they're not early adopters yet, but they see the value and

adopters yet, but they see the value and they see the need to transform. If I'm

they see the need to transform. If I'm working with a company where at every um

working with a company where at every um every stage I'm getting a lot of push

every stage I'm getting a lot of push back and and um a lot of um resistance

back and and um a lot of um resistance to transformation, it's probably not

to transformation, it's probably not going to uh end up good for anybody. Uh,

going to uh end up good for anybody. Uh, so I would I would say if they're really

so I would I would say if they're really reluctant to um other opinions and forms

reluctant to um other opinions and forms of doing business, then they're they're

of doing business, then they're they're probably not going to be a great

probably not going to be a great candidate for transformation at the

candidate for transformation at the state.

state. Got it. I guess that would be the first

Got it. I guess that would be the first transformation would be to to overcome

transformation would be to to overcome that mindset.

that mindset. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes perfect

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes perfect sense. They they say a lot of um like AI

sense. They they say a lot of um like AI adoption is organizational level people

adoption is organizational level people transformation. So uh and having like

transformation. So uh and having like worked through that myself, it's true

worked through that myself, it's true like I think what you said is exactly

like I think what you said is exactly right. If you have a a fixed mindset and

right. If you have a a fixed mindset and a particular approach and you're

a particular approach and you're unwilling to change it, it's a very

unwilling to change it, it's a very difficult project to undertake with

difficult project to undertake with those kind of groups.

those kind of groups. Absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. And so you've worked on um established

And so you've worked on um established products, products in motion, startups,

products, products in motion, startups, and with different groups. How do you

and with different groups. How do you change your approach uh when it comes to

change your approach uh when it comes to sales and positioning specifically when

sales and positioning specifically when a product is evolving? Um, I mean, if

a product is evolving? Um, I mean, if you're with a household brand, you know,

you're with a household brand, you know, if you're with like a a Salesforce or an

if you're with like a a Salesforce or an SAP, when you go into sales calls,

SAP, when you go into sales calls, everybody knows why we're here.

everybody knows why we're here. Everybody knows what the product is in

Everybody knows what the product is in some capacity. Uh, so you're already

some capacity. Uh, so you're already three steps ahead. When you're going in

three steps ahead. When you're going in completely green with an unknown

completely green with an unknown product, maybe um even a new category of

product, maybe um even a new category of product uh and an unknown brand, you

product uh and an unknown brand, you have to do a lot of work to gain trust

have to do a lot of work to gain trust and to gain understanding and and to

and to gain understanding and and to really like hold your prospect your

really like hold your prospect your prospect's hand through the entire

prospect's hand through the entire process in order to in in order to to

process in order to in in order to to get the sale at the end of the day. It's

get the sale at the end of the day. It's it's a bit more of a of a push. M and

it's a bit more of a of a push. M and that process of um holding hands not not

that process of um holding hands not not like figuratively holding hands is

like figuratively holding hands is you could do it really too.

you could do it really too. That's that's true. Yeah. Depending on

That's that's true. Yeah. Depending on the customer that that could be true. Um

the customer that that could be true. Um how does that unfold? Like is it uh like

how does that unfold? Like is it uh like white glove service through the

white glove service through the onboarding like what is it the thing

onboarding like what is it the thing that people can actually put into

that people can actually put into practice?

practice? Uh there's a few things you can do. Um,

Uh there's a few things you can do. Um, so yeah, I think in in general all

so yeah, I think in in general all startups and technology companies and

startups and technology companies and vendors in general should lean into a

vendors in general should lean into a white glove type of service even if

white glove type of service even if you're the big guy, right? Um, your

you're the big guy, right? Um, your business is never guaranteed. So, uh,

business is never guaranteed. So, uh, leaning into obviously great service,

leaning into obviously great service, um, understanding and, uh, maybe reading

um, understanding and, uh, maybe reading the customer and what with what's not

the customer and what with what's not being said. And what I mean by that is

being said. And what I mean by that is uh when we're going through like a proof

uh when we're going through like a proof of concept or any stage of the sales

of concept or any stage of the sales cycle uh the things that they bring up

cycle uh the things that they bring up even if they're not directly complaining

even if they're not directly complaining um they they could be indicators that

um they they could be indicators that like something is not sticking with your

like something is not sticking with your product. So it it can be something some

product. So it it can be something some sort of response that you feed back to

sort of response that you feed back to the product. Maybe maybe the UI is just

the product. Maybe maybe the UI is just not uh is just not hitting in the right

not uh is just not hitting in the right space or maybe a certain feature sounds

space or maybe a certain feature sounds really cool to us on the text side but

really cool to us on the text side but on the user side it's really not

on the user side it's really not applicable. So having that constant

applicable. So having that constant feedback cycle between sales which is

feedback cycle between sales which is the you know the first point of contact

the you know the first point of contact for the customer all the way to product

for the customer all the way to product and leadership I think is is a very

and leadership I think is is a very important mechanism to to to really

important mechanism to to to really accustomize uh your organization

accustomize uh your organization and have you observed like um teams

and have you observed like um teams across uh sales CS product I know it's a

across uh sales CS product I know it's a it's an increasing trend where um

it's an increasing trend where um feedback is being just real time

feedback is being just real time streamed into Slack and then maybe AI

streamed into Slack and then maybe AI agents are action some pieces of it. Um,

agents are action some pieces of it. Um, my curiosity there is like have you seen

my curiosity there is like have you seen where that still causes a disconnect

where that still causes a disconnect between customer and product experience

between customer and product experience even though that's like being automated

even though that's like being automated in some way?

in some way? C. Yeah, definitely. I mean there

C. Yeah, definitely. I mean there there's a few ways that could get lost.

there's a few ways that could get lost. Number one is if you have like too many

Number one is if you have like too many notifications and you have too many um

notifications and you have too many um emails or bumps or uh you know your CRM

emails or bumps or uh you know your CRM messaging uh constantly chattering um

messaging uh constantly chattering um you're going to ignore it all. I'm I'm

you're going to ignore it all. I'm I'm terrible for that. Like if I have way

terrible for that. Like if I have way too many notifications, everything's

too many notifications, everything's getting ignored. So, and and that's a

getting ignored. So, and and that's a risk um um for any type of organization.

risk um um for any type of organization. If you have too many signals, you might

If you have too many signals, you might as well have none because they're just

as well have none because they're just going to get ignored,

going to get ignored, right?

right? Um so, is that that that's one way, but

Um so, is that that that's one way, but then it's also, you know, goes back to

then it's also, you know, goes back to the mindset of the startup as well. Do

the mindset of the startup as well. Do you have a culture of um of of no ego

you have a culture of um of of no ego and of understanding? So if for example

and of understanding? So if for example a customer success or product is getting

a customer success or product is getting feedback from sales saying hey this is

feedback from sales saying hey this is not landing this is not resonating how

not landing this is not resonating how do they receive that kind of information

do they receive that kind of information are they really defensive do they blame

are they really defensive do they blame the customer do they blame sales um and

the customer do they blame sales um and what's the process for them kind of

what's the process for them kind of fixing or or taking that that feedback

fixing or or taking that that feedback and and implementing it. M. So there has

and and implementing it. M. So there has to be like some level of um inbound

to be like some level of um inbound notification triage for it to like the

notification triage for it to like the important things to get through and the

important things to get through and the other ones to get filtered out.

other ones to get filtered out. I I would say so for sure.

I I would say so for sure. Got it. Um just switching back to your

Got it. Um just switching back to your your work in the supply chain industry

your work in the supply chain industry for a moment. Um if I'm running uh like

for a moment. Um if I'm running uh like a logistics company or supply chain org

a logistics company or supply chain org today, uh where would you tell me not to

today, uh where would you tell me not to start with AI?

start with AI? Oh, there's so many so many places. Um I

Oh, there's so many so many places. Um I think if we're going in green like you

think if we're going in green like you know we've never we've never done any

know we've never we've never done any sort of transformation work before um

sort of transformation work before um often times we look at like those

often times we look at like those massive really exciting AI success

massive really exciting AI success stories like the Walmarts or the

stories like the Walmarts or the Starbuckses organizations that really

Starbuckses organizations that really have been working in the space and

have been working in the space and transformation for many many years and

transformation for many many years and we think that we have to go big. So we

we think that we have to go big. So we want to boil the ocean. we're going to

want to boil the ocean. we're going to throw down a couple million dollars to

throw down a couple million dollars to to um run a huge project. I would say

to um run a huge project. I would say dial it back and kind of look at some of

dial it back and kind of look at some of the, you know, the more boring use cases

the, you know, the more boring use cases that are high impact and start to again

that are high impact and start to again understand um AI governance in the

understand um AI governance in the organization. Understand where your data

organization. Understand where your data is at, understand um where where our our

is at, understand um where where our our people are at in terms of adoption and

people are at in terms of adoption and growth. And just building on that, like

growth. And just building on that, like um you've made the argument just uh in

um you've made the argument just uh in through your posts um that some

through your posts um that some companies have too many tools um instead

companies have too many tools um instead of too few. Like what do you think like

of too few. Like what do you think like what's going on there? Like what's where

what's going on there? Like what's where are they where are they getting it wrong

are they where are they getting it wrong in that case?

in that case? Um I mean if you take like sales teams

Um I mean if you take like sales teams for example there there's a million and

for example there there's a million and one different sales tools that will

one different sales tools that will promise you know 67% more productivity

promise you know 67% more productivity if you just spend an extra $100 a month

if you just spend an extra $100 a month per person. And you know, it it it makes

per person. And you know, it it it makes sense in the sale and and it's like,

sense in the sale and and it's like, okay, if we just give more resources to

okay, if we just give more resources to our teams, they're going to do better

our teams, they're going to do better and it's going to solve everything. Um,

and it's going to solve everything. Um, as opposed to kind of fix fixing maybe

as opposed to kind of fix fixing maybe maybe there's a problem underneath and

maybe there's a problem underneath and um maybe our teams aren't uh leaning

um maybe our teams aren't uh leaning into technology, there's an adoption

into technology, there's an adoption issue or um some of these tools don't

issue or um some of these tools don't perform the way that they've been

perform the way that they've been advertised. So, uh, I I see that a lot

advertised. So, uh, I I see that a lot with now particularly with AI, a lot of

with now particularly with AI, a lot of disjointed and and um competing systems

disjointed and and um competing systems that don't necessarily need to be there,

that don't necessarily need to be there, right? So, in that in that like um like

right? So, in that in that like um like I guess expanding that further a lot of

I guess expanding that further a lot of time these uh like tools are very

time these uh like tools are very impressive like in in the demo or if

impressive like in in the demo or if they're searching it out and reading

they're searching it out and reading through the positioning on a website.

through the positioning on a website. Um, where do you see like a difference

Um, where do you see like a difference or where have you seen a difference

or where have you seen a difference between something that is impressive

between something that is impressive like at an executive level versus

like at an executive level versus something that teams actually implement

something that teams actually implement and use over a six like six month cycle

and use over a six like six month cycle or one year cycle? I would say um the

or one year cycle? I would say um the difference is going to be and and like

difference is going to be and and like all things being equal with with

all things being equal with with different technologies and startups. Um

different technologies and startups. Um what would make a difference is if we go

what would make a difference is if we go into any sort of engagement with a a

into any sort of engagement with a a vendor um with a clear set of

vendor um with a clear set of expectations um and and this should be

expectations um and and this should be written out and should be agreed upon

written out and should be agreed upon and not just skimmed, right? So actually

and not just skimmed, right? So actually let's have a discussion what I want to

let's have a discussion what I want to achieve and who is um who who here is

achieve and who is um who who here is involved. Um and then you have in on the

involved. Um and then you have in on the internal side different types of metrics

internal side different types of metrics for adoption on your team. So that's not

for adoption on your team. So that's not going to be the technologies

going to be the technologies responsibility. That's not going to be

responsibility. That's not going to be um on your vendor shoulders if you

um on your vendor shoulders if you aren't getting your people to actually

aren't getting your people to actually use the tool that you are paying money

use the tool that you are paying money for. Right? I I can't force your um your

for. Right? I I can't force your um your your planners to log into their their

your planners to log into their their systems every day. That that's got to be

systems every day. That that's got to be a leadership exercise.

a leadership exercise. So who like how do you bridge the gap

So who like how do you bridge the gap then between like buyer system user

then between like buyer system user vendor? Um like you said like you can't

vendor? Um like you said like you can't force it but so is there a person that

force it but so is there a person that should own that gap or is it like a

should own that gap or is it like a system of principles or or guiding maybe

system of principles or or guiding maybe agreement between the team itself like

agreement between the team itself like what have you seen work?

what have you seen work? No simple metrics. So, so KPIs are are

No simple metrics. So, so KPIs are are usually a good motivator um for for your

usually a good motivator um for for your team. So, if you're, for example,

team. So, if you're, for example, wanting to get your team to use um like

wanting to get your team to use um like Excel spreadsheets less and use that

Excel spreadsheets less and use that million-doll tool that you purchased to

million-doll tool that you purchased to replace your spreadsheets, then there

replace your spreadsheets, then there should be somebody observing that it's

should be somebody observing that it's getting used,

getting used, right? And you know, there's this old

right? And you know, there's this old saying, um you you can expect what you

saying, um you you can expect what you don't inspect. So if you're not

don't inspect. So if you're not monitoring adoption, if you're not

monitoring adoption, if you're not putting like rewards towards um people

putting like rewards towards um people using it and understanding it, they

using it and understanding it, they probably won't because at the at the end

probably won't because at the at the end of the day, you know, it takes effort to

of the day, you know, it takes effort to understand new technology and to lean

understand new technology and to lean into it.

into it. And and have you seen like um in terms

And and have you seen like um in terms of building that measurement, have you

of building that measurement, have you seen success where um the company and

seen success where um the company and the vendor or the vendor is basically

the vendor or the vendor is basically recommending best practices on how to

recommending best practices on how to measure their own system? Like have you

measure their own system? Like have you seen that?

seen that? Absolutely. And and I would say if

Absolutely. And and I would say if you're if you're a vendor like the the

you're if you're a vendor like the the ideal situation is strong adoption

ideal situation is strong adoption because you know a sale is good but um

because you know a sale is good but um it means nothing if they turn in you

it means nothing if they turn in you know in a year uh and they're going to

know in a year uh and they're going to turn in a year if nobody's using that

turn in a year if nobody's using that tool. So, if you're in implementation

tool. So, if you're in implementation from the get-go, usually I start my

from the get-go, usually I start my conversations with like what's going to

conversations with like what's going to make your team want to use this and how

make your team want to use this and how do I get your team to open up and uh

do I get your team to open up and uh open up that piece of software every

open up that piece of software every single day and use it how it's supposed

single day and use it how it's supposed to be.

to be. So, so the vendor is as responsible for

So, so the vendor is as responsible for measurement as the as the company it is

measurement as the as the company it is itself.

itself. Um I mean it's a you know all of these

Um I mean it's a you know all of these engagements should really be

engagements should really be collaborations. Mhm.

collaborations. Mhm. Um, so, you know, nobody's pointing to

Um, so, you know, nobody's pointing to the other the other side of the

the other the other side of the relationship being like, "It's your

relationship being like, "It's your fault that this failed or, you know,

fault that this failed or, you know, it's nothing works or um, your team

it's nothing works or um, your team isn't doing what they said they would

isn't doing what they said they would do." It should be a collaboration where

do." It should be a collaboration where everybody comes together and lays out

everybody comes together and lays out what the expectations are and what we

what the expectations are and what we need to collaboratively achieve these

need to collaboratively achieve these goals. We all have the same goals at the

goals. We all have the same goals at the end of the day and that's to be

end of the day and that's to be successful. As a salesperson, my goal is

successful. As a salesperson, my goal is to sell. Um, and how I do that and how I

to sell. Um, and how I do that and how I maintain retaining customers is making

maintain retaining customers is making sure the onboarding and the retention is

sure the onboarding and the retention is is great. Um, so it's my best interest

is great. Um, so it's my best interest to make sure that the the my my prospect

to make sure that the the my my prospect is is armed with the best of um of what

is is armed with the best of um of what we can do.

we can do. Got it. And [snorts] so for a company

Got it. And [snorts] so for a company that's um core product or AI

that's um core product or AI implementation requires grabbing on to

implementation requires grabbing on to existing data sets if they hit that if

existing data sets if they hit that if they hit the um like the maybe it's a

they hit the um like the maybe it's a common objection at this point where

common objection at this point where they say like our our data is not ready

they say like our our data is not ready it's it's not ready it needs to be clean

it's it's not ready it needs to be clean like do you think that's a like is that

like do you think that's a like is that legitimate response or is this more of

legitimate response or is this more of not understanding how to get the data in

not understanding how to get the data in a right right place

a right right place 100% it's legitimate and especially in

100% it's legitimate and especially in the world of supply chain um data is is

the world of supply chain um data is is pretty chaotic. It's it's very messy um

pretty chaotic. It's it's very messy um both for you know um poor governance

both for you know um poor governance within data and for like multiple uh

within data and for like multiple uh systems that aren't connected don't

systems that aren't connected don't speak to one another and absolutely if

speak to one another and absolutely if if you you know have um an a have AI

if you you know have um an a have AI speaking to data that's incorrect you're

speaking to data that's incorrect you're not going to get the out um so it's

not going to get the out um so it's definitely legitimate there are there's

definitely legitimate there are there's lots of software out there that can

lots of software out there that can support um cleansing that data

support um cleansing that data automatically uh so you don't have to

automatically uh so you don't have to hire hire three interns to, you know,

hire hire three interns to, you know, fix misspellings within your your ERP

fix misspellings within your your ERP and and all of that really really

and and all of that really really painful stuff.

painful stuff. Um, but but yeah, particularly some of

Um, but but yeah, particularly some of the larger organizations, you aren't

the larger organizations, you aren't going to go anywhere near them until you

going to go anywhere near them until you do like a six-month data project,

do like a six-month data project, right? and and they um in your

right? and and they um in your experience uh at the executive level if

experience uh at the executive level if there's buyin to begin the data project

there's buyin to begin the data project like to actually clean the data and

like to actually clean the data and structure it in a way where it can be

structure it in a way where it can be used by um like like an AI

used by um like like an AI implementation uh is that also an area

implementation uh is that also an area for collaboration or is it like a wait

for collaboration or is it like a wait and come back kind of thing?

and come back kind of thing? It it depends on the the the

It it depends on the the the organization so on the on the vendor. So

organization so on the on the vendor. So some vendors they do they have

some vendors they do they have artificial intelligence that will

artificial intelligence that will cleanse and harmonize that data for you.

cleanse and harmonize that data for you. um which which I think is is fantastic.

um which which I think is is fantastic. They can go in and correct all those

They can go in and correct all those misspellings, create, you know, what's

misspellings, create, you know, what's called an ontology to to make more sense

called an ontology to to make more sense of the the connection between different

of the the connection between different uh pieces of data um and do that

uh pieces of data um and do that automatically for you. So you don't have

automatically for you. So you don't have to hire interns. Uh if they don't offer

to hire interns. Uh if they don't offer that, then unfortunately, you know, you

that, then unfortunately, you know, you have to find another vendor that that

have to find another vendor that that does do data harmonization or you have

does do data harmonization or you have to do it manually. Okay. I I mean, have

to do it manually. Okay. I I mean, have you seen in where we are today with

you seen in where we are today with technology um adoption, have you seen

technology um adoption, have you seen companies go the manual route? Is that

companies go the manual route? Is that still a It is. Okay. Okay. Interesting.

still a It is. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. And it's as painful as it sounds.

Yeah. And it's as painful as it sounds. [laughter]

[laughter] Yeah. Fair. Fair enough. Fair enough. Um

Yeah. Fair. Fair enough. Fair enough. Um and so working with supply chain

and so working with supply chain leaders, uh what have you seen, um has

leaders, uh what have you seen, um has to be true where when they establish

to be true where when they establish enough trust for an AI system to make

enough trust for an AI system to make decisions, um without human approval?

decisions, um without human approval? Um

Um particularly where we're at with with AI

particularly where we're at with with AI and and probably for the foreseeable

and and probably for the foreseeable future, uh I would say that we should

future, uh I would say that we should always keep a human in the loop. Uh so

always keep a human in the loop. Uh so you know in in terms of my AI strategy

you know in in terms of my AI strategy there's um a human at the center of all

there's um a human at the center of all these different agents and and and

these different agents and and and different automations. Um so in a way

different automations. Um so in a way there's there's always somebody

there's there's always somebody overseas. Um if you have something

overseas. Um if you have something that's very low consequence it's not

that's very low consequence it's not going to damage reputation. It's not

going to damage reputation. It's not going to um if if it there's an error

going to um if if it there's an error there's not going to be a huge financial

there's not going to be a huge financial penalty. you can automate those things

penalty. you can automate those things away and and I have many different types

away and and I have many different types of automations that go up that go

of automations that go up that go without my oversane but the more

without my oversane but the more consequence you have the closer it

consequence you have the closer it should be to

should be to right so so like when how much of I

right so so like when how much of I guess this is an interesting question

guess this is an interesting question where some companies or teams build in

where some companies or teams build in points of intervention where an AI agent

points of intervention where an AI agent should go back and ask a human to for a

should go back and ask a human to for a decision or how to proceed but sometimes

decision or how to proceed but sometimes in the interaction in the real world I'm

in the interaction in the real world I'm just thinking of a example like happy

just thinking of a example like happy robot uh built very sophisticated voice

robot uh built very sophisticated voice agents to act in freight and sometimes

agents to act in freight and sometimes the recipients which maybe is a trucking

the recipients which maybe is a trucking company or a truck driver gives the

company or a truck driver gives the answer and that there is no time to go

answer and that there is no time to go back to the human like it just executes

back to the human like it just executes an action. What what what can a team do

an action. What what what can a team do in that case or is that a natural

in that case or is that a natural outcome of deploying something and

outcome of deploying something and that's acting with other humans in in

that's acting with other humans in in the real world who might not know it's

the real world who might not know it's an AI they're speaking to?

an AI they're speaking to? Oh yeah. Yeah, good point. And you might

Oh yeah. Yeah, good point. And you might see this more and more. I think people

see this more and more. I think people are are starting to kind of in every

are are starting to kind of in every interaction question is this robot? Is

interaction question is this robot? Is this human?

this human? Um and so if you're thinking of like

Um and so if you're thinking of like some sort of chatbot or um customer

some sort of chatbot or um customer service type of artificial intelligence,

service type of artificial intelligence, yeah, you need that real time

yeah, you need that real time interaction. Um usually they have some

interaction. Um usually they have some sort of sequence or flow where it's

sort of sequence or flow where it's like, okay, I can't handle this

like, okay, I can't handle this question. You need to write wait for a

question. You need to write wait for a human and then it's get sent to you a

human and then it's get sent to you a human.

human. Right. So I guess there's like a an

Right. So I guess there's like a an amount of um I guess evolution as

amount of um I guess evolution as consumers and people that we're going

consumers and people that we're going through in real time um which is uh

through in real time um which is uh becoming increasingly harder I guess for

becoming increasingly harder I guess for teams to manage and the need for like

teams to manage and the need for like what you said how do you intelligently

what you said how do you intelligently put the human in the loop.

put the human in the loop. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think all of these

Yeah. Yeah. And and I think all of these kind of things are iterative

kind of things are iterative um which is another lesson with

um which is another lesson with implementation and and transformation.

implementation and and transformation. You don't just set something up and my

You don't just set something up and my world is solved. You know, everything is

world is solved. You know, everything is is good. We're transformed. We're an AI

is good. We're transformed. We're an AI native company. No, AI is works in in

native company. No, AI is works in in terms of um adjusting and and iterating

terms of um adjusting and and iterating on on different flows and understanding

on on different flows and understanding the organization, what works, what

the organization, what works, what doesn't. Um, so absolutely that kind of

doesn't. Um, so absolutely that kind of goes back to having somebody internally

goes back to having somebody internally that that does have a really good

that that does have a really good understanding of the product that does

understanding of the product that does have a really good understanding of your

have a really good understanding of your internal systems and and can make sure

internal systems and and can make sure that everything is consistently flowing

that everything is consistently flowing the way it should be.

the way it should be. I think that's a great point like having

I think that's a great point like having a internal um conductor or someone who

a internal um conductor or someone who can orchestrate this this change. Do you

can orchestrate this this change. Do you think it's always the case that um a

think it's always the case that um a company would have to redesign a

company would have to redesign a workflow or operation or have you seen

workflow or operation or have you seen it where like AI can layer into existing

it where like AI can layer into existing processes in a meaningful way?

processes in a meaningful way? It should. Yeah. Yeah. You should be

It should. Yeah. Yeah. You should be able to particularly um um with your

able to particularly um um with your vendor, you should have things set up

vendor, you should have things set up where they are operational, right? Um if

where they are operational, right? Um if I if I pay for a certain engagement, I

I if I pay for a certain engagement, I should anticipate that everything is

should anticipate that everything is running smoothly. Um but what we're

running smoothly. Um but what we're seeing right now with a lot of systems

seeing right now with a lot of systems they have um you know prompting and and

they have um you know prompting and and different chat functions and some people

different chat functions and some people are using chat JPTt or claw um and

are using chat JPTt or claw um and they're vibe coding things. Um in these

they're vibe coding things. Um in these sentences and these these scenarios

sentences and these these scenarios you're going to need some sort of system

you're going to need some sort of system that that double checks that vibecoded

that that double checks that vibecoded um automation

um automation or agent is actually functioning the way

or agent is actually functioning the way it should. I guess that that's that's

it should. I guess that that's that's one of the uh I guess strong cases for

one of the uh I guess strong cases for eval being in place before like Yeah.

eval being in place before like Yeah. Okay, makes sense.

Okay, makes sense. Um and what's a job inside supply chain

Um and what's a job inside supply chain logistics organizations that you think

logistics organizations that you think will look fundamentally different? Uh f

will look fundamentally different? Uh f I mean I'll use five years but maybe

I mean I'll use five years but maybe like a less time than that. Like what do

like a less time than that. Like what do you think that would be? H I like to

you think that would be? H I like to think um so there's a lot of like fear

think um so there's a lot of like fear mongering and and talk about those entry

mongering and and talk about those entry level jobs disappearing um and or or

level jobs disappearing um and or or they're there just being less of but I

they're there just being less of but I like to think that like the new hires

like to think that like the new hires and and people that are getting into

and and people that are getting into supply chain are really well equipped

supply chain are really well equipped with um with with the skills for AI and

with um with with the skills for AI and they're actually um a really evolved

they're actually um a really evolved sort of like junior planner or um some

sort of like junior planner or um some of those entry level roles, analyst

of those entry level roles, analyst roles, but they are actually using a lot

roles, but they are actually using a lot of AI just to become a lot more

of AI just to become a lot more functional, a lot more of a um of a

functional, a lot more of a um of a secret weapon in your organization. So

secret weapon in your organization. So instead of replacing these junior

instead of replacing these junior employees, we are uh using them to to

employees, we are uh using them to to the best of their ability. That's what I

the best of their ability. That's what I would like to see in five years. So the

would like to see in five years. So the the like the playing field is completely

the like the playing field is completely uh level between a jun like like a new

uh level between a jun like like a new entrant into the workforce using AI

entrant into the workforce using AI systems versus a more experienced person

systems versus a more experienced person already in the org.

already in the org. Um I mean there's there's probably going

Um I mean there's there's probably going to still be you know a little bit of

to still be you know a little bit of hierarchy and nuances in the roles. Um

hierarchy and nuances in the roles. Um but a lot of times some of the push back

but a lot of times some of the push back I get is uh those experienced folks

I get is uh those experienced folks they've been in in the in the role for

they've been in in the in the role for 20 30 years they've been working in

20 30 years they've been working in supply chain for for their entire career

supply chain for for their entire career they may be pushing back on on

they may be pushing back on on artificial intelligence. So how do you

artificial intelligence. So how do you then transform when you're t people are

then transform when you're t people are not adopting technology? Well, then that

not adopting technology? Well, then that can come from your from your junior

can come from your from your junior employees that have been brought up and

employees that have been brought up and are very much native to to using AI.

are very much native to to using AI. So, in in other words, like the

So, in in other words, like the investment in the new workforce helps

investment in the new workforce helps bridge the gap between like some

bridge the gap between like some hesitancy and rolling out AI native

hesitancy and rolling out AI native employees essentially.

employees essentially. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Got it. That's a it's an interesting um

Got it. That's a it's an interesting um I guess way to phrase it because uh

I guess way to phrase it because uh you've been in the technology space for

you've been in the technology space for enough time where the idea being AI

enough time where the idea being AI native seems strange because it's like

native seems strange because it's like 10 15 years ago it was not common place

10 15 years ago it was not common place by any means but today almost everyone

by any means but today almost everyone at least claims to be AI native because

at least claims to be AI native because it's like seems like table stakes to

it's like seems like table stakes to exist in the workforce. So um I find

exist in the workforce. So um I find that a really interesting positioning. I

that a really interesting positioning. I don't know how orgs are exactly going to

don't know how orgs are exactly going to figure that out. Well, I think like

figure that out. Well, I think like right now um we hear a lot about people

right now um we hear a lot about people saying they're AI native or there's a

saying they're AI native or there's a lot of because it's a huge topic right

lot of because it's a huge topic right now. It's the the number one topic of

now. It's the the number one topic of every conference, every podcast is AI.

every conference, every podcast is AI. Um but the actuality of the number of

Um but the actuality of the number of people using AI in their daily work is

people using AI in their daily work is very very few.

very very few. Right. Right. Because the work has not

Right. Right. Because the work has not fundamentally changed yet in in in so

fundamentally changed yet in in in so many cases.

many cases. Yeah. Yeah. and and for whatever

Yeah. Yeah. and and for whatever personal reason they they aren't leaning

personal reason they they aren't leaning into it and and that that's fine. Um but

into it and and that that's fine. Um but you know sometimes technology takes a

you know sometimes technology takes a while to to to move.

while to to to move. Totally makes sense. So working in again

Totally makes sense. So working in again different uh scales of organization

different uh scales of organization different sizes. There's a convergence

different sizes. There's a convergence now between like product marketing

now between like product marketing engineer converging into this one

engineer converging into this one superpower. Um what do what have you

superpower. Um what do what have you seen actually helps companies grow? Like

seen actually helps companies grow? Like if we're talking um from like the

if we're talking um from like the startup

startup from a startup yeah from a startup

from a startup yeah from a startup from a startup perspective. Okay.

from a startup perspective. Okay. Um well I mean things have evolved from

Um well I mean things have evolved from how we go to market inc incredibly like

how we go to market inc incredibly like I've been in business development since

I've been in business development since the start of my career. Like I I was the

the start of my career. Like I I was the person cold calling and I was the person

person cold calling and I was the person um getting setting up appointments for

um getting setting up appointments for for senior staff. And the difference

for senior staff. And the difference between what's happening now and then is

between what's happening now and then is is it's a completely different role.

is it's a completely different role. It's a completely different role for me

It's a completely different role for me than 3 years ago, 2 years ago. Um so not

than 3 years ago, 2 years ago. Um so not acknowledging that, not leaning into

acknowledging that, not leaning into that to try to differentiate and come up

that to try to differentiate and come up with new ways to get in front of your

with new ways to get in front of your your prospect is is um I think it's it's

your prospect is is um I think it's it's a mistake.

a mistake. So this is I guess back to the idea of

So this is I guess back to the idea of um iteration and adaptation like

um iteration and adaptation like continuously. Mhm. Absolutely.

continuously. Mhm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like it it's there there are

Absolutely. Like it it's there there are a lot smarter people out there that are

a lot smarter people out there that are getting in front of customers. Um so we

getting in front of customers. Um so we we can't sit around and and do things

we can't sit around and and do things the way we did even a couple years ago

the way we did even a couple years ago in order to to get market share.

in order to to get market share. Got it. And where do founders um they

Got it. And where do founders um they tend to underestimate the go to market

tend to underestimate the go to market work when it comes to a new product, new

work when it comes to a new product, new service, new category? Um there's a few

service, new category? Um there's a few um well number one is just kind of

um well number one is just kind of looking into the mindset of a founder. I

looking into the mindset of a founder. I mean they are um they're right into

mean they are um they're right into their product. They you know that's

their product. They you know that's their their baby. That's that's their

their their baby. That's that's their their lifeblood. So going into go to

their lifeblood. So going into go to market is usually something that's kind

market is usually something that's kind of painful for them. They don't

of painful for them. They don't necessarily want to be spending their

necessarily want to be spending their time posting on LinkedIn, knocking on

time posting on LinkedIn, knocking on doors. Um which which I get it. They

doors. Um which which I get it. They might be product people. They might be

might be product people. They might be be engineers. Um so what they do often

be engineers. Um so what they do often underestimate is that the go to market

underestimate is that the go to market is um is you know can make or break the

is um is you know can make or break the company. Um it is very time consuming

company. Um it is very time consuming and it's not just a case of like showing

and it's not just a case of like showing up in in your prospect's inbox and

up in in your prospect's inbox and saying hey I'm going to change your life

saying hey I'm going to change your life if you just accept this 30 minute

if you just accept this 30 minute meeting. Um I think there there's a lot

meeting. Um I think there there's a lot of there's a lot of misunderstanding

of there's a lot of misunderstanding there that that you know our prospects

there that that you know our prospects are just sitting in their offices

are just sitting in their offices waiting for us to bless them with a

waiting for us to bless them with a meeting with ourselves

meeting with ourselves right so so like um the activation

right so so like um the activation energy of going into market is uh like I

energy of going into market is uh like I guess when you internalize your product

guess when you internalize your product your baby's beautiful then you'd say why

your baby's beautiful then you'd say why wouldn't everybody buy this beautiful

wouldn't everybody buy this beautiful thing and yeah okay that's a fair point

thing and yeah okay that's a fair point and do you find there's um this is like

and do you find there's um this is like a a common setup in startups you

a a common setup in startups you uh like there'll be a go to market sales

uh like there'll be a go to market sales product type CEO and then a very

product type CEO and then a very technical CTO but I've seen now there's

technical CTO but I've seen now there's many more CTOs that are the founder and

many more CTOs that are the founder and like they're moving forward into the

like they're moving forward into the market. How do you what's the first

market. How do you what's the first thing that those um that like profile

thing that those um that like profile could do to not hit the wall as soon as

could do to not hit the wall as soon as they start the go to market approach?

they start the go to market approach? Like what's one practical thing they

Like what's one practical thing they could do? Yeah, I I would I would agree.

could do? Yeah, I I would I would agree. The the CTO persona is is um very, you

The the CTO persona is is um very, you know, very prominent with with tech

know, very prominent with with tech startups these days. So, if they don't

startups these days. So, if they don't have that that co-CEO that that's doing

have that that co-CEO that that's doing go to market, then maybe that's a

go to market, then maybe that's a position you want to hire out um or at

position you want to hire out um or at least, you know, get somebody fractional

least, you know, get somebody fractional to support um reach out to to your

to support um reach out to to your network for for ways of of of doing

network for for ways of of of doing things. But, you know, we can't all be

things. But, you know, we can't all be good at everything. And and so if you're

good at everything. And and so if you're you're uh more of an engineer, um you

you're uh more of an engineer, um you you don't you don't want to be in the

you don't you don't want to be in the public space, you you don't want to be

public space, you you don't want to be reaching out to um prospects, then it

reaching out to um prospects, then it might be something that you you

might be something that you you outsource. Yeah, I think that's I think

outsource. Yeah, I think that's I think I think the thing that lures people in

I think the thing that lures people in is this idea that you can fully automate

is this idea that you can fully automate your go to market motion. But to your

your go to market motion. But to your point and and what you've done through

point and and what you've done through social selling like on LinkedIn, it it's

social selling like on LinkedIn, it it's clear that there still has to be someone

clear that there still has to be someone like behind all of that. Um so so

like behind all of that. Um so so building on that um I just want to talk

building on that um I just want to talk a little bit about the the work you've

a little bit about the the work you've done inside that realm of social

done inside that realm of social selling. Um that's okay. And uh one of

selling. Um that's okay. And uh one of them is that you generate like tons of

them is that you generate like tons of inbound meetings by by your content,

inbound meetings by by your content, your posting, sharing things publicly.

your posting, sharing things publicly. Um when did you realize that that

Um when did you realize that that investment was worth it on LinkedIn

investment was worth it on LinkedIn where it's an acquisition channel, not

where it's an acquisition channel, not just um personal branding space?

just um personal branding space? Well, when I I started my last role, um

Well, when I I started my last role, um you know, I was I was uh leading

you know, I was I was uh leading everything from the start of the funnel

everything from the start of the funnel to, you know, closing and um and

to, you know, closing and um and customer support and everything in

customer support and everything in between. But what I had no marketing

between. But what I had no marketing budget so I you know I could not compete

budget so I you know I could not compete against all of my competitors that had

against all of my competitors that had millions of dollars. I had you know

millions of dollars. I had you know maybe a couple hundred. Um so the only

maybe a couple hundred. Um so the only way to do that is to try and go viral.

way to do that is to try and go viral. Um get in front of as many people as

Um get in front of as many people as possible because knocking on doors and

possible because knocking on doors and reaching out to people on LinkedIn is

reaching out to people on LinkedIn is not is not scalable in a way that I

not is not scalable in a way that I needed it to be. I needed to create an

needed it to be. I needed to create an inbounds panel while I'm um meeting with

inbounds panel while I'm um meeting with customers, while I'm building marketing

customers, while I'm building marketing material and all of the other things I

material and all of the other things I would do in my day-to-day job. I need

would do in my day-to-day job. I need customers to come to me. Um so I, you

customers to come to me. Um so I, you know, I'm not naturally a a huge

know, I'm not naturally a a huge extrovert or like somebody who who loves

extrovert or like somebody who who loves social media. It's kind of my first time

social media. It's kind of my first time on social media. Uh but I was like,

on social media. Uh but I was like, "Hey, I I'm going to lean in and I'm

"Hey, I I'm going to lean in and I'm going to do it." and um and yeah, just

going to do it." and um and yeah, just so it just one day I started posting and

so it just one day I started posting and here we are.

here we are. Awesome. I I I think that leaning also

Awesome. I I I think that leaning also takes um a certain level of courage like

takes um a certain level of courage like like I've noticed a lot of people get

like I've noticed a lot of people get stuck in that idea like that's not for

stuck in that idea like that's not for me, I can't do it. What would you tell

me, I can't do it. What would you tell them to get out of that like mindset

them to get out of that like mindset where they're they're stuck and and

where they're they're stuck and and afraid to move forward?

afraid to move forward? Yeah, I mean I get it. I I you know I

Yeah, I mean I get it. I I you know I cringe at the things that I say online

cringe at the things that I say online just like probably a lot of people do um

just like probably a lot of people do um when they they see me posting and I was

when they they see me posting and I was just like you know what [ __ ] it I got to

just like you know what [ __ ] it I got to put bread on this table um and and this

put bread on this table um and and this is this is the way I'm going to do it.

is this is the way I'm going to do it. So, just kind of getting into a mindset

So, just kind of getting into a mindset of um I'm here to to get things done.

of um I'm here to to get things done. And then once you start get getting

And then once you start get getting things flowing and you have people

things flowing and you have people coming to you and and your your your

coming to you and and your your your posts are starting to get some traction,

posts are starting to get some traction, then a lot of that like that awkwardness

then a lot of that like that awkwardness goes away. Get

goes away. Get Yeah. I I I I really um that mindset

Yeah. I I I I really um that mindset resonates with me a lot. I think people

resonates with me a lot. I think people have this idealized uh way of winning in

have this idealized uh way of winning in their head, but winning actually looks

their head, but winning actually looks very different when you start to like

very different when you start to like move out into any game, whether it's in

move out into any game, whether it's in business, sports or or parts of your

business, sports or or parts of your life. So, I think that makes a lot of

life. So, I think that makes a lot of sense.

sense. Mhm. Yeah. Well, you know, it's it can

Mhm. Yeah. Well, you know, it's it can be embarrassing at first. Like you have

be embarrassing at first. Like you have people who are CEOs of a company and

people who are CEOs of a company and they get like two likes on a post and

they get like two likes on a post and you know, one of them is from his mom

you know, one of them is from his mom and so it's like it's it's it's awkward,

and so it's like it's it's it's awkward, but um we've been there and and um you

but um we've been there and and um you you just have to you have to play the

you just have to you have to play the game and if you have good things to say

game and if you have good things to say and good things to share, then then

and good things to share, then then it'll pick up. And and on that point

it'll pick up. And and on that point from the like making sure that your

from the like making sure that your likes don't just come from your mom. Um

likes don't just come from your mom. Um what's what's a post that like what's

what's what's a post that like what's the difference between generating

the difference between generating attention versus generating like real

attention versus generating like real pipeline and and prog progressing with

pipeline and and prog progressing with uh your lead lead channels?

uh your lead lead channels? So um you you want to come about your um

So um you you want to come about your um your position very strategically. So you

your position very strategically. So you do need posts that generate attention.

do need posts that generate attention. Um, so you need breath, you need top of

Um, so you need breath, you need top of funnel to to get your message and get

funnel to to get your message and get your your profile and and your writing

your your profile and and your writing out there. Um, but that there's a place

out there. Um, but that there's a place for that. And you know, you can use

for that. And you know, you can use things like humor, um, announcements,

things like humor, um, announcements, job postings, all of that stuff is very

job postings, all of that stuff is very top of funnel and it's not necessarily

top of funnel and it's not necessarily going to get you business, but it's

going to get you business, but it's going to get you reach, which eventually

going to get you reach, which eventually leads to business. Um and then once you

leads to business. Um and then once you have a little bit more reach and and you

have a little bit more reach and and you know maybe you have a viral post then

know maybe you have a viral post then the next couple days you can start

the next couple days you can start feeding in more uh more detailed bottom

feeding in more uh more detailed bottom offunnel type of posts that will like

offunnel type of posts that will like from that you know breadth of audience

from that you know breadth of audience that you've captured maybe one or two of

that you've captured maybe one or two of those people will be your um ideal

those people will be your um ideal client persona and then they are gonna

client persona and then they are gonna they're going to climb into yours. So,

they're going to climb into yours. So, it's it's about kind of like uh starting

it's it's about kind of like uh starting with maybe a place of genuine interest

with maybe a place of genuine interest about your your point of view in the

about your your point of view in the world and then as that builds up

world and then as that builds up actually going in and interacting with

actually going in and interacting with people, interacting with your post. Is

people, interacting with your post. Is that like a high level of that that

that like a high level of that that formula?

formula? Um you need to be doing all of those

Um you need to be doing all of those simultaneously and and throughout,

simultaneously and and throughout, right? like it's never um building some

right? like it's never um building some sort of um social um selling process is

sort of um social um selling process is not like a one two time kind of post.

not like a one two time kind of post. You have to keep showing up and so I mix

You have to keep showing up and so I mix up my materials in terms of top ofunnel

up my materials in terms of top ofunnel um midfunnel and bottom ofunnel and I I

um midfunnel and bottom ofunnel and I I do that regularly. But at the same time

do that regularly. But at the same time I'm also engaging with other people's

I'm also engaging with other people's posts. Um I'm you know trying to

posts. Um I'm you know trying to organically get people to my profile.

organically get people to my profile. I'm commenting and I'm kind of giving

I'm commenting and I'm kind of giving back um while I'm also posting at the

back um while I'm also posting at the same time.

same time. Got it. So, it's it's a it's a rigorous

Got it. So, it's it's a it's a rigorous discipline.

discipline. It it is. Yes. Right.

It it is. Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you can automate a lot

Yeah. Yeah. And you can automate a lot of that, but it still has to it still

of that, but it still has to it still has to be you. It still has to have a

has to be you. It still has to have a personality.

personality. So, that I guess that's like a case

So, that I guess that's like a case where you go from a writer to an editor

where you go from a writer to an editor like of a of a say if you're writing

like of a of a say if you're writing with an LLM like you would edit before

with an LLM like you would edit before it goes out.

it goes out. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Right. So,

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Right. So, what would you say to the founder that,

what would you say to the founder that, and I'm sure you've heard this and are

and I'm sure you've heard this and are hearing this with like like people you

hearing this with like like people you work with, they're saying, "I should

work with, they're saying, "I should definitely be posting on LinkedIn." Uh,

definitely be posting on LinkedIn." Uh, they do like, you know, a generic post

they do like, you know, a generic post and then they say, "Oh, like this sucks.

and then they say, "Oh, like this sucks. I'm not good at it. I'm done." What are

I'm not good at it. I'm done." What are they misunderstanding?

they misunderstanding? Um, yeah, that that happens a lot. Or

Um, yeah, that that happens a lot. Or even like even, you know, they get one

even like even, you know, they get one viral post and then the next six posts

viral post and then the next six posts kind of bomb and like, "Hey, the

kind of bomb and like, "Hey, the algorithm's broken. Nobody likes Um, I

algorithm's broken. Nobody likes Um, I would say, you know, go back to the

would say, you know, go back to the grassroots and think about your

grassroots and think about your strategy. Do you have um specific things

strategy. Do you have um specific things that you're talking about? Who are you

that you're talking about? Who are you talking talking to? What are your goals

talking talking to? What are your goals for each type of post? Um, and what are

for each type of post? Um, and what are you trying to achieve when you send your

you trying to achieve when you send your messages out to the world? So, kind of

messages out to the world? So, kind of coming into it with that strategy and

coming into it with that strategy and that way of thinking as opposed to just,

that way of thinking as opposed to just, you know, throwing up some thoughts of

you know, throwing up some thoughts of the day. um it is going to have that

the day. um it is going to have that better out outcome and then you're going

better out outcome and then you're going to see some of like the things that you

to see some of like the things that you actually are trying to achieve come

actually are trying to achieve come through but it's not instant

through but it's not instant right so there's a level of like

right so there's a level of like pre-work and structuring that people

pre-work and structuring that people should maybe invest in if they want to

should maybe invest in if they want to see that like come to be

see that like come to be yeah yeah they should I mean some some

yeah yeah they should I mean some some people kind of get it just organically

people kind of get it just organically but then they probably have a background

but then they probably have a background in in writing or copywriting or

in in writing or copywriting or marketing thing um that is just innate,

marketing thing um that is just innate, but say maybe a CTO that doesn't that

but say maybe a CTO that doesn't that you know isn't a natural writer, they're

you know isn't a natural writer, they're probably not going to um be able to to

probably not going to um be able to to produce something that will act that

produce something that will act that will go viral if that's the goal.

will go viral if that's the goal. Got it. And and thank you for that. I

Got it. And and thank you for that. I think that's actually uh very valuable

think that's actually uh very valuable um advice for people to implement into

um advice for people to implement into their own writing. Um moving into just a

their own writing. Um moving into just a little bit of like a rapid fire closing

little bit of like a rapid fire closing round for you. Um, what's something that

round for you. Um, what's something that you're learning about right now that has

you're learning about right now that has nothing to do with your day-to-day work?

nothing to do with your day-to-day work? I am, you know, I'm a big podcaster, so

I am, you know, I'm a big podcaster, so um, I listen to like a lot of like

um, I listen to like a lot of like science-based podcasts, um, and things

science-based podcasts, um, and things completely unrelated to technology. Um,

completely unrelated to technology. Um, I'm also, you know, at the moment doing

I'm also, you know, at the moment doing a renovation, so learning about how to

a renovation, so learning about how to build. Um, yeah.

build. Um, yeah. Nice. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty

Nice. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty engrossing like changing your physical

engrossing like changing your physical space. Absolutely. But it's rewarding

space. Absolutely. But it's rewarding because like so much in sales, you

because like so much in sales, you actually don't see the return on your

actually don't see the return on your work every single day, but when you're

work every single day, but when you're building something, you have like an

building something, you have like an instant change,

instant change, right? Yeah, that makes sense. I mean,

right? Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's a lot of the same work. You have to

it's a lot of the same work. You have to uh sell yourself on a on a design and

uh sell yourself on a on a design and then actually do the work of putting it

then actually do the work of putting it in and realize you might make a mistake

in and realize you might make a mistake along the way and have to maybe bring

along the way and have to maybe bring someone in to help you correct it.

someone in to help you correct it. Yeah. Not not get bored halfway through

Yeah. Not not get bored halfway through painting a wall and and give up. Yep.

painting a wall and and give up. Yep. Yeah, [laughter] that's true. That's

Yeah, [laughter] that's true. That's true. That's that is I mean, painting a

true. That's that is I mean, painting a wall is way harder than people think.

wall is way harder than people think. It is. It is. But it's it's so soothing

It is. It is. But it's it's so soothing to somebody who works on computers all

to somebody who works on computers all day to be able to to do something

day to be able to to do something visible and and manual, not being able

visible and and manual, not being able to pick up your phone for a few hours.

to pick up your phone for a few hours. Yeah. No, that's great. Um, and so my

Yeah. No, that's great. Um, and so my next question is, who is a like a

next question is, who is a like a business operator or a business leader

business operator or a business leader that you borrow from or find inspiration

that you borrow from or find inspiration from? I wouldn't say I have like one,

from? I wouldn't say I have like one, but um again I listen to like a lot of

but um again I listen to like a lot of different podcasts um on from different

different podcasts um on from different industries, whether it's like sales

industries, whether it's like sales entrepreneurs

entrepreneurs um or you know like the diary of a CEO

um or you know like the diary of a CEO guy. Um [clears throat] he he says some

guy. Um [clears throat] he he says some wise things every now and then that I

wise things every now and then that I that I pick up on.

that I pick up on. Nice. Yeah, I think there's a there's so

Nice. Yeah, I think there's a there's so much content out there. Um, and we're

much content out there. Um, and we're living in such a privileged time where

living in such a privileged time where after a certain amount of success,

after a certain amount of success, people give away all their secrets.

people give away all their secrets. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, and the last question for you,

Yeah. Um, and the last question for you, uh, what do you do that helps you quiet

uh, what do you do that helps you quiet your mind?

your mind? Um, I read a lot of audio books. Um,

Um, I read a lot of audio books. Um, read. Are you reading audio books? You

read. Are you reading audio books? You listen, you're listening to audio books.

listen, you're listening to audio books. Um, and you know, some of them are

Um, and you know, some of them are completely vapid and and I just tune out

completely vapid and and I just tune out and listen.

and listen. Got it. Okay. So, that takes you to a

Got it. Okay. So, that takes you to a space where you can quiet out other

space where you can quiet out other thoughts. Okay. Yeah. I mean, uh,

thoughts. Okay. Yeah. I mean, uh, depending, I guess, on the voice of the

depending, I guess, on the voice of the person reading the audio books, some of

person reading the audio books, some of them can be very immersive, like you get

them can be very immersive, like you get totally lost in what they're saying.

totally lost in what they're saying. Absolutely. They Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. They Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Great. Well, I really

Yeah. Okay. Great. Well, I really appreciate you joining me today,

appreciate you joining me today, Heather. This was really good. Um, I I

Heather. This was really good. Um, I I got some great insights and I appreciate

got some great insights and I appreciate your time today.

your time today. Thank you. Appreciate you having me. It

Thank you. Appreciate you having me. It was fun.

was fun. Behind the

Behind the [music] behind the door.

[music] behind the door. One move and the whole thing goes. Yeah.

One move and the whole thing goes. Yeah. We [music] build we build we build it

We [music] build we build we build it real behind the