Hiring for Grit: Building Sales Teams and Assessing Talent with AI

Behind the code.

Behind [music] the code.

Behind [music] the code. That's where the future grows.

That's where the future grows. Welcome to Behind the Code brought to

Welcome to Behind the Code brought to you by Atomic Build. I'm Emit and today

you by Atomic Build. I'm Emit and today I have joining me Kevin from 135 and Rep

I have joining me Kevin from 135 and Rep 2X. Really happy to have you here,

2X. Really happy to have you here, Kevin. Love to hear a little intro about

Kevin. Love to hear a little intro about yourself.

yourself. Thanks. Excellent. Yeah, great. Great to

Thanks. Excellent. Yeah, great. Great to be here. So, yeah, I'm Kevin DeFranco,

be here. So, yeah, I'm Kevin DeFranco, founder, CEO of a company out in

founder, CEO of a company out in Cleveland, Ohio called 135. Um, so we

Cleveland, Ohio called 135. Um, so we started 135 two years ago as an

started 135 two years ago as an outsourced business development shop for

outsourced business development shop for mostly small businesses and startups. So

mostly small businesses and startups. So we have a team here now. We've grown to

we have a team here now. We've grown to 20 BDRs here in house in our office day

20 BDRs here in house in our office day in and day out that are grinding it out

in and day out that are grinding it out trying to get new new qualified meetings

trying to get new new qualified meetings for our our clients. And during that

for our our clients. And during that time from the beginning we've had a

time from the beginning we've had a process where we've put all of our

process where we've put all of our candidates through an AI roleplay

candidates through an AI roleplay scenario. So we did that for about a

scenario. So we did that for about a year and a half. It helps me kind of as

year and a half. It helps me kind of as a solo founder put folks through that

a solo founder put folks through that and that is Rep 2X. So now as of January

and that is Rep 2X. So now as of January 1st of this year, we're now providing

1st of this year, we're now providing that to other companies to leverage in

that to other companies to leverage in their own interview process and their

their own interview process and their own hiring and onboarding process, but

own hiring and onboarding process, but it's all kind of encompassing in in

it's all kind of encompassing in in inside of one company that is 135. So

inside of one company that is 135. So super super happy to be here.

super super happy to be here. Wow. Awesome. That is a I mean you've

Wow. Awesome. That is a I mean you've spent a lot of time building sales teams

spent a lot of time building sales teams and mostly in the preAI era. So it's

and mostly in the preAI era. So it's really cool to see you've taken that

really cool to see you've taken that knowledge and built it into something a

knowledge and built it into something a little bigger. and all that time like

little bigger. and all that time like what what do you think what did you

what what do you think what did you learn that a lot of companies

learn that a lot of companies misunderstand about hiring sales talent?

misunderstand about hiring sales talent? Yeah. And I'm not going to say I'm a I

Yeah. And I'm not going to say I'm a I mean I'm I'm still learning and still

mean I'm I'm still learning and still trying to figure things out. I I think

trying to figure things out. I I think the funny thing about sales is it's it's

the funny thing about sales is it's it's always going to be a little bit of a

always going to be a little bit of a rlet. You know, somebody's going to

rlet. You know, somebody's going to interview great. Even on paper they

interview great. Even on paper they could look great. they could have a

could look great. they could have a great track record previously or they

great track record previously or they could say they do and and there's not

could say they do and and there's not really much verification out there to to

really much verification out there to to really know for sure is is what they put

really know for sure is is what they put on paper in front of you in the resume

on paper in front of you in the resume legitimate. But the thing I've learned

legitimate. But the thing I've learned is is for me personally like I look at

is is for me personally like I look at more of a persona. I I look at more of

more of a persona. I I look at more of of an individual regardless of of talent

of an individual regardless of of talent or or where what their experience level

or or where what their experience level is. And and granted like what we're

is. And and granted like what we're doing most folks are entry level for us

doing most folks are entry level for us but I I look at more of of experience or

but I I look at more of of experience or more of of a background and and the two

more of of a background and and the two when I started the company and I I

when I started the company and I I reflected back on my career of 10 years

reflected back on my career of 10 years working in different organizations and

working in different organizations and saying okay of the people I knew that

saying okay of the people I knew that were successful what characteristics did

were successful what characteristics did they have and then those are the

they have and then those are the characteristics I'm going to try to look

characteristics I'm going to try to look for in my candidates and and the two

for in my candidates and and the two that I always came back to and I

that I always came back to and I continue today like it's it's what I

continue today like it's it's what I look for high level of athletic

look for high level of athletic background so even today most half of of

background so even today most half of of our team played some level of of college

our team played some level of of college athletics. So, they're used to hitting

athletics. So, they're used to hitting goals and and pushing themselves and and

goals and and pushing themselves and and getting punched in the mouth and

getting punched in the mouth and bouncing back from it. And the other

bouncing back from it. And the other thing is is and or entrepreneurial

thing is is and or entrepreneurial ambition. I I think it's it's extremely

ambition. I I think it's it's extremely important for sales folks to to kind of

important for sales folks to to kind of take accountability for their results.

take accountability for their results. And almost I remember early on somebody

And almost I remember early on somebody that was kind of a mentor to me compared

that was kind of a mentor to me compared it to like when you're in charge of a

it to like when you're in charge of a territory, in charge of a quota,

territory, in charge of a quota, whatever, it is good to look at that as

whatever, it is good to look at that as kind of like your own little business

kind of like your own little business that you're you're responsible for and

that you're you're responsible for and you're you're striving to have success

you're you're striving to have success with. And so I I think what what folks

with. And so I I think what what folks get wrong, I mean, some of it is is just

get wrong, I mean, some of it is is just a timing component, right? like you

a timing component, right? like you maybe don't have a lot of good quality

maybe don't have a lot of good quality candidates that are coming through your

candidates that are coming through your pipeline and you're also whether it's

pipeline and you're also whether it's you know external internal pressures for

you know external internal pressures for growth or or whatever else you feel like

growth or or whatever else you feel like there's maybe a gun to your head that

there's maybe a gun to your head that you have to make a decision and so

you have to make a decision and so sometimes I I think people just say okay

sometimes I I think people just say okay well this is who we got so we're going

well this is who we got so we're going to see what happens unfortunately

to see what happens unfortunately sometimes they find themselves back in

sometimes they find themselves back in the same position a couple months later

the same position a couple months later and they're having to replace that

and they're having to replace that person but but really what I what I've

person but but really what I what I've seen now in even with working with some

seen now in even with working with some of the clients that we have because

of the clients that we have because usually our clients have some level of a

usually our clients have some level of a sales team internally. Um it is it is a

sales team internally. Um it is it is a very challenging process which is funny

very challenging process which is funny right because sales is such a

right because sales is such a quantifiable thing. I think a lot maybe

quantifiable thing. I think a lot maybe put too much emphasis on the hiring side

put too much emphasis on the hiring side on like personality than actual

on like personality than actual potential talent and that's ultimately

potential talent and that's ultimately what we try to solve with with RepX.

what we try to solve with with RepX. So you I think you said something just

So you I think you said something just hit home for me which is the athletic

hit home for me which is the athletic side and the entrepreneur side but

side and the entrepreneur side but there's a lot of connective tissue there

there's a lot of connective tissue there like like you said you need a

like like you said you need a discipline. You got to get used to

discipline. You got to get used to getting punched in the face. That's

getting punched in the face. That's true. be a bit of a glutton for

true. be a bit of a glutton for punishment. So, when you're having a

punishment. So, when you're having a conversation with someone, what is it

conversation with someone, what is it like about the way that they maybe

like about the way that they maybe describe their experience where a light

describe their experience where a light bulb goes out for you where you say,

bulb goes out for you where you say, "Oh, this person will have at least the

"Oh, this person will have at least the right mix that I can mold going

right mix that I can mold going forward."

forward." Yeah. So, a lot of our our hires are

Yeah. So, a lot of our our hires are coming fresh out of school, so a lot of

coming fresh out of school, so a lot of them don't have experience. So, I I put

them don't have experience. So, I I put a lot of heavy emphasis into the side of

a lot of heavy emphasis into the side of things. So, obviously, like the athletic

things. So, obviously, like the athletic background is an easy thing to navigate.

background is an easy thing to navigate. With that said, actually, I'll share a

With that said, actually, I'll share a quick story. Kind of funny. right out

quick story. Kind of funny. right out the gate, one of the first people I

the gate, one of the first people I interviewed, it was this this guy. So,

interviewed, it was this this guy. So, here in the States, we have the NCAA and

here in the States, we have the NCAA and we have the different divisions and so

we have the different divisions and so forth. So, was talking about this guy,

forth. So, was talking about this guy, he had he had he went to Penn State and

he had he had he went to Penn State and played baseball and and part of like his

played baseball and and part of like his story, his interview was all about, hey,

story, his interview was all about, hey, I started at this smaller D2 school,

I started at this smaller D2 school, worked my way up. It was always my dream

worked my way up. It was always my dream to go to a D1 program. So, I like I love

to go to a D1 program. So, I like I love that. Also, like if he had just gone to

that. Also, like if he had just gone to a D3 school, I would have still loved

a D3 school, I would have still loved that. I didn't really put much of a

that. I didn't really put much of a different emphasis on on levels or

different emphasis on on levels or anything like that. But the funny thing

anything like that. But the funny thing kind of with with verification and so

kind of with with verification and so forth, it was an easy Google search to

forth, it was an easy Google search to to search him and his background. Turns

to search him and his background. Turns out he went to a Penn State satellite

out he went to a Penn State satellite campus, which is not the same Penn State

campus, which is not the same Penn State that he he positioned himself as being

that he he positioned himself as being from. And so I was like, "Hey,

from. And so I was like, "Hey, unfortunately, you know, honesty is is

unfortunately, you know, honesty is is something I I value tremendously." And

something I I value tremendously." And so unfortunately, you know, this is

so unfortunately, you know, this is where your interview process is going to

where your interview process is going to end. But anyways, sorry side side

end. But anyways, sorry side side tangent on that. But obviously athletic

tangent on that. But obviously athletic background that that side of things is

background that that side of things is usually easy to to to sus out and so

usually easy to to to sus out and so forth. Entrepreneurial side though, you

forth. Entrepreneurial side though, you know, that's that's where I I throw my

know, that's that's where I I throw my interviews are are pretty casual when

interviews are are pretty casual when when I do them with our our candidates.

when I do them with our our candidates. So I don't ask them a lot of questions

So I don't ask them a lot of questions that their career service, you know,

that their career service, you know, department probably told them. Hey, you

department probably told them. Hey, you need to know how to tell them how you

need to know how to tell them how you overcome a disagreement with a co-orker

overcome a disagreement with a co-orker or a friend or what you how you deal

or a friend or what you how you deal with adversity. Like, they're going to

with adversity. Like, they're going to have those all prepackaged and

have those all prepackaged and rehearsed. I don't want to hear that.

rehearsed. I don't want to hear that. So, a question I always ask our

So, a question I always ask our candidates is, "Hey, you know, you're

candidates is, "Hey, you know, you're you're a year out of school, you're

you're a year out of school, you're about to graduate from college. If

about to graduate from college. If everything went down a perfect pathway

everything went down a perfect pathway career-wise, what are you doing in 20

career-wise, what are you doing in 20 years?" And one, none of them ever

years?" And one, none of them ever really have been asked that before in an

really have been asked that before in an interview. So, they don't really have

interview. So, they don't really have that answer ready to go. And so it is an

that answer ready to go. And so it is an authentic question and that's really

authentic question and that's really helped me figure out like what what is

helped me figure out like what what is this individual striving for? And and

this individual striving for? And and you know sometimes they just go that's a

you know sometimes they just go that's a great question. I don't really have an

great question. I don't really have an answer for you. But sometimes we have

answer for you. But sometimes we have the ones that are like well you know I I

the ones that are like well you know I I want to work hard. I understand this is

want to work hard. I understand this is an entry- level role. Work hard after a

an entry- level role. Work hard after a couple years get to a certain level

couple years get to a certain level become VP of sales or you know become

become VP of sales or you know become the head of a company or whatever. Or

the head of a company or whatever. Or you get the ones that are like hey I

you get the ones that are like hey I honestly would love to be in your shoes

honestly would love to be in your shoes or I want to be retired. And it's like

or I want to be retired. And it's like okay well how are you going to get

okay well how are you going to get there? I'm going to really work hard in

there? I'm going to really work hard in in sales and make a lot of money and

in sales and make a lot of money and hopefully put myself in a position to

hopefully put myself in a position to retire. So that's that's how I I sus it

retire. So that's that's how I I sus it out a little bit on on the the again the

out a little bit on on the the again the student side because there's not much of

student side because there's not much of a track record to go off of. And so

a track record to go off of. And so that's that's how I I feel those two

that's that's how I I feel those two things out is is I mean the athletic

things out is is I mean the athletic background is is a little bit easier for

background is is a little bit easier for verification sake.

verification sake. Yeah. But that that question and we'll

Yeah. But that that question and we'll see if anybody watches this then they'll

see if anybody watches this then they'll get a little bit of a cheat code as to

get a little bit of a cheat code as to why I ask that and maybe they'll they'll

why I ask that and maybe they'll they'll cheat the system on how to answer it.

cheat the system on how to answer it. But that's that's mainly what I'm

But that's that's mainly what I'm looking for and they don't have the

looking for and they don't have the athletic background. what is what is

athletic background. what is what is pushing them moving forward because that

pushing them moving forward because that happens too is we get a lot of

happens too is we get a lot of candidates that apply especially in the

candidates that apply especially in the age of AI right there's some roles that

age of AI right there's some roles that maybe even four years ago were looking

maybe even four years ago were looking really good whether it's computer

really good whether it's computer science or graphic design or marketing

science or graphic design or marketing and now they're finding themselves maybe

and now they're finding themselves maybe not finding so many opportunities that

not finding so many opportunities that they thought they were uh and so they

they thought they were uh and so they apply to us but it's more of just them

apply to us but it's more of just them applying as a just an option because

applying as a just an option because they just need a job. It's not that

they just need a job. It's not that they're going to actually this is a

they're going to actually this is a monotonous role. It's a lot of

monotonous role. It's a lot of rejection. It's a lot of no people that

rejection. It's a lot of no people that that don't have that thing pulling them

that don't have that thing pulling them into, you know, that next step is

into, you know, that next step is promotion, whatever, they burn out

promotion, whatever, they burn out really quick.

really quick. Yeah. Yeah. There's a I just want to go

Yeah. Yeah. There's a I just want to go back to one thing you said. I think that

back to one thing you said. I think that that story you you shared where like D3,

that story you you shared where like D3, D2, D1, like the progressive thread. I

D2, D1, like the progressive thread. I think the fact that you weighted truth

think the fact that you weighted truth over the narrative is really a strong

over the narrative is really a strong signal to not just people coming out of

signal to not just people coming out of school but really anyone in the

school but really anyone in the candidate pool who is like massaging

candidate pool who is like massaging their experiences. I think people do

their experiences. I think people do value that tr stories that are authentic

value that tr stories that are authentic now more than ever because like you also

now more than ever because like you also mentioned in the age of AI you can

mentioned in the age of AI you can quickly spin up any tale you want with

quickly spin up any tale you want with an LLM. So I think that's a really good

an LLM. So I think that's a really good just a not I mean that's a young person

just a not I mean that's a young person so they have a long career ahead of

so they have a long career ahead of them. So, it's a good lesson to just get

them. So, it's a good lesson to just get up front that authenticity pays. So, I

up front that authenticity pays. So, I appreciate that you shared that and you

appreciate that you shared that and you were able to give that in the interview.

were able to give that in the interview. Yeah, thankfully. Oddly enough, that's

Yeah, thankfully. Oddly enough, that's the only time it's happened was right.

the only time it's happened was right. It was like one of the first people I

It was like one of the first people I ever interviewed all the way back in

ever interviewed all the way back in spring of of 2024. But, yeah, I mean,

spring of of 2024. But, yeah, I mean, personally, I I played actually just a

personally, I I played actually just a little bit south of where you are. I

little bit south of where you are. I played at a D3 school in Rochester, New

played at a D3 school in Rochester, New York. I Oh, nice.

York. I Oh, nice. I know I know what happens. I mean, it's

I know I know what happens. I mean, it's pros and cons. Like, D1 is a very

pros and cons. Like, D1 is a very serious thing. D3 though, you're not

serious thing. D3 though, you're not getting paid and you just do it for the

getting paid and you just do it for the love of the the competitiveness and team

love of the the competitiveness and team aspect and so forth. But yeah.

aspect and so forth. But yeah. Did you play baseball as well?

Did you play baseball as well? No, actually I was uh I played football

No, actually I was uh I played football and and ran track.

and and ran track. Wow. Okay, nice. Those are two very

Wow. Okay, nice. Those are two very difficult sports.

difficult sports. Yeah, it was uh I mean it kind of just

Yeah, it was uh I mean it kind of just correlates to now like just always

correlates to now like just always something like I would have football.

something like I would have football. Football would go up until maybe like

Football would go up until maybe like two weeks before Thanksgiving, then I

two weeks before Thanksgiving, then I would jump in the indoor track and then

would jump in the indoor track and then uh we would have outdoor outdoor track

uh we would have outdoor outdoor track in the springtime, but also spring

in the springtime, but also spring football. So little rocky athletic

football. So little rocky athletic career. I uh found myself on academic

career. I uh found myself on academic probation after two years because trying

probation after two years because trying to balance football practice in the

to balance football practice in the morning, classes in the middle, and then

morning, classes in the middle, and then track at night. Spring semester,

track at night. Spring semester, sophomore year,

sophomore year, grades did not go as they should have.

grades did not go as they should have. But all in all,

But all in all, a rough schedule. Yeah.

a rough schedule. Yeah. Yeah. Still got out in four years

Yeah. Still got out in four years though, so that's that's good. And

though, so that's that's good. And didn't have to drop out or anything like

didn't have to drop out or anything like that.

that. Good for you. That's awesome. What a

Good for you. That's awesome. What a question I had about 135. So it's it's

question I had about 135. So it's it's phone first outbound and a lot of

phone first outbound and a lot of LinkedIn is around like automated email,

LinkedIn is around like automated email, automated reach out like lots of

automated reach out like lots of sequencing that's been fully like mostly

sequencing that's been fully like mostly AI I think is the trend. Why did you go

AI I think is the trend. Why did you go that way?

that way? Yeah, great great question. So when I

Yeah, great great question. So when I started this up in 24, it was like right

started this up in 24, it was like right when Clay Clay was kind of the first one

when Clay Clay was kind of the first one in that space of like, right, being able

in that space of like, right, being able to personalize an email, scraping

to personalize an email, scraping websites, scraping LinkedIn, and now I

websites, scraping LinkedIn, and now I can personalize my outreach to you and

can personalize my outreach to you and it looks super authentic, right? And and

it looks super authentic, right? And and I think like the first time I got that,

I think like the first time I got that, I got a cold email or or LinkedIn

I got a cold email or or LinkedIn message, I was like, "Oh, wow. This

message, I was like, "Oh, wow. This person really dove into everything and

person really dove into everything and like they did their research." But after

like they did their research." But after you get like 10 of those, and I've even

you get like 10 of those, and I've even I I shared this maybe around this time

I I shared this maybe around this time last year. We had an opening and I I got

last year. We had an opening and I I got three separate essentially like

three separate essentially like identical cold email outreaches from

identical cold email outreaches from from agencies for hiring. You know, we

from agencies for hiring. You know, we had an SDR posting and so they were

had an SDR posting and so they were seeing if we wanted to use their

seeing if we wanted to use their service. Every single template was

service. Every single template was identical, but it was three I had to go

identical, but it was three I had to go back and check three separate companies.

back and check three separate companies. So my my hypothesis two years ago was

So my my hypothesis two years ago was that while these tools are great, while

that while these tools are great, while they're amazing and and you can

they're amazing and and you can personalize the hell out of whatever

personalize the hell out of whatever you're doing, my hypothesis was there

you're doing, my hypothesis was there was going to be so much noise in the

was going to be so much noise in the inbox of the prospect that you were just

inbox of the prospect that you were just going to get lost. Like the 10 years

going to get lost. Like the 10 years before LLM came out, I had a a

before LLM came out, I had a a tremendous success rate with cold email.

tremendous success rate with cold email. Like I I really hung my head on that and

Like I I really hung my head on that and and it was a phenomenal way of getting

and it was a phenomenal way of getting in front of prospects. My hypothesis was

in front of prospects. My hypothesis was there was going to be so much noise.

there was going to be so much noise. Obviously, deliverability has also

Obviously, deliverability has also gotten more challenging over the last

gotten more challenging over the last two years that that wasn't going to be a

two years that that wasn't going to be a way companies were going to be standing

way companies were going to be standing out. And I've yet to talk to any I mean,

out. And I've yet to talk to any I mean, naturally, they use us for a reason, but

naturally, they use us for a reason, but I've yet to talk to any companies that

I've yet to talk to any companies that are saying like, yeah, in this day and

are saying like, yeah, in this day and age, we're crushing it on cold email.

age, we're crushing it on cold email. And so, that's why two years ago, from

And so, that's why two years ago, from the beginning, I was like, I want to

the beginning, I was like, I want to make sure our our main focus is the

make sure our our main focus is the phones. I I compare it to I I grew up in

phones. I I compare it to I I grew up in the 90s, you know, 98 if I would have

the 90s, you know, 98 if I would have run out to my mailbox, it would have

run out to my mailbox, it would have been jam-packed with letters on a daily

been jam-packed with letters on a daily basis, you know, whatever mailers you're

basis, you know, whatever mailers you're getting and so forth. Today, I could go

getting and so forth. Today, I could go without grabbing my mail for two weeks

without grabbing my mail for two weeks and come to it and have maybe 10 10

and come to it and have maybe 10 10 things that are in there. And I I think

things that are in there. And I I think that's kind of like what we're seeing

that's kind of like what we're seeing with with cold outreach via the phones

with with cold outreach via the phones where it's kind of been this negative

where it's kind of been this negative stereotype over the last couple years.

stereotype over the last couple years. And because email was so successful,

And because email was so successful, there's a whole era, I'd say, of

there's a whole era, I'd say, of salespeople that that are just so used

salespeople that that are just so used to having success on that side that they

to having success on that side that they don't really have the acumen of of being

don't really have the acumen of of being able to have success on the phones. And

able to have success on the phones. And so that's why I I told myself, and

so that's why I I told myself, and that's actually partly why we get folks

that's actually partly why we get folks right out of school, is to just start

right out of school, is to just start fresh with a blank canvas, that we're

fresh with a blank canvas, that we're going to focus on the phones, and that's

going to focus on the phones, and that's that's what we're going to hang our hat

that's what we're going to hang our hat on, and that's how we're going to get in

on, and that's how we're going to get in front of these prospects. And, you know,

front of these prospects. And, you know, it's gone tremendously well where we're

it's gone tremendously well where we're having success for our clients. And and

having success for our clients. And and when we first started everything up, we

when we first started everything up, we were doing like the traditional email

were doing like the traditional email sequences and we were even doing the

sequences and we were even doing the cadences where we would send an email on

cadences where we would send an email on the first day, give them a call the next

the first day, give them a call the next day and be like, "Hey, just sent you an

day and be like, "Hey, just sent you an email yesterday. You know, this is who I

email yesterday. You know, this is who I am." To hopefully warm up their their

am." To hopefully warm up their their just awareness of whoever we're calling

just awareness of whoever we're calling on behalf of. But then what we saw was

on behalf of. But then what we saw was nobody was even seeing those emails. If

nobody was even seeing those emails. If they were hitting the inbox, they're one

they were hitting the inbox, they're one of 100 emails they're getting on that

of 100 emails they're getting on that day. And it was it was it's wild to me.

day. And it was it was it's wild to me. We we did email sequencing up until

We we did email sequencing up until March of this year and that's ultimately

March of this year and that's ultimately when we just said this isn't a

when we just said this isn't a worthwhile thing. For us personally,

worthwhile thing. For us personally, we've sent tens of thousands of cold

we've sent tens of thousands of cold emails during that period of time. It

emails during that period of time. It resulted in from from like an email

resulted in from from like an email first perspective, I think it resulted

first perspective, I think it resulted in three or four meetings for our

in three or four meetings for our clients over the same period of time. If

clients over the same period of time. If we looked at the phone first uh

we looked at the phone first uh situations and where we had meetings

situations and where we had meetings scheduled, it was a couple hundred over

scheduled, it was a couple hundred over the same period of time. Now, with that

the same period of time. Now, with that said, like email is still a good

said, like email is still a good pathway. We're having a lot of success.

pathway. We're having a lot of success. You know, we get we have big pharma

You know, we get we have big pharma clients that we call for, get a hold of

clients that we call for, get a hold of somebody, they're in the middle of a

somebody, they're in the middle of a meeting or whatever else, they want us

meeting or whatever else, they want us to follow up with an email for some more

to follow up with an email for some more awareness and then we follow up again on

awareness and then we follow up again on the phones. And that's where we have

the phones. And that's where we have success. But as far as is email first,

success. But as far as is email first, and that's where, sorry, long-winded

and that's where, sorry, long-winded answer. These AI tools that are out

answer. These AI tools that are out there, these AI SDRs, it's it's at least

there, these AI SDRs, it's it's at least in the States, it's illegal to make cold

in the States, it's illegal to make cold calls with AI, even though the

calls with AI, even though the technology is there. And and I think

technology is there. And and I think that is how it should be because if it

that is how it should be because if it if that were to go out the window, our

if that were to go out the window, our phones would just be blowing up off the

phones would just be blowing up off the hooks like a lot of our inboxes are

hooks like a lot of our inboxes are right now. But but that's the challenge

right now. But but that's the challenge I see with a lot of these AISDRs is they

I see with a lot of these AISDRs is they are all textbased. I I think there is

are all textbased. I I think there is probably still a lot of value on the

probably still a lot of value on the LinkedIn side. We we do automation on

LinkedIn side. We we do automation on the LinkedIn side for our clients. It is

the LinkedIn side for our clients. It is a very good pathway and I think some of

a very good pathway and I think some of those those AI bots have gotten a little

those those AI bots have gotten a little bit better recently. I I've gotten some

bit better recently. I I've gotten some really good cold AI because even at some

really good cold AI because even at some point like they're pitching the product

point like they're pitching the product so they'll tell me kind of at the end

so they'll tell me kind of at the end and sometimes I'll I'll just go with it

and sometimes I'll I'll just go with it to see but at the end they'll say like

to see but at the end they'll say like hey this is an AI SDR just so you know

hey this is an AI SDR just so you know and that's how they're trying to get in.

and that's how they're trying to get in. But but yeah that's that's why we

But but yeah that's that's why we focused on the phones is one not a lot

focused on the phones is one not a lot of folks are doing it. Not a lot of

of folks are doing it. Not a lot of folks know how to even do it or how to

folks know how to even do it or how to even set up the tools and so forth. And

even set up the tools and so forth. And so that's that's kind of our value prop

so that's that's kind of our value prop here.

here. And [snorts] so like you mentioned a lot

And [snorts] so like you mentioned a lot of your cohort is is new grads. Do do

of your cohort is is new grads. Do do you think just from an energy

you think just from an energy perspective like the endurance required

perspective like the endurance required to make outbound phone calls comes from

to make outbound phone calls comes from that place whereas maybe someone more

that place whereas maybe someone more mature in their sales career it's tough

mature in their sales career it's tough for them for them to get back on the

for them for them to get back on the phone when you get you know lured in

phone when you get you know lured in with all these automation tools that

with all these automation tools that kind of claim to just you never have to

kind of claim to just you never have to touch an outbound sequence again. Do you

touch an outbound sequence again. Do you think that's one of the key factors?

think that's one of the key factors? Yeah, part of it too is like I don't

Yeah, part of it too is like I don't know what what expectations were at a

know what what expectations were at a previous company. So, if somebody's been

previous company. So, if somebody's been working for three years elsewhere and

working for three years elsewhere and you know, maybe they come to us and they

you know, maybe they come to us and they say, "Hey, I was making 40 calls a day,

say, "Hey, I was making 40 calls a day, 40 calls a day really isn't isn't that

40 calls a day really isn't isn't that much all in all." And and so, yeah,

much all in all." And and so, yeah, definitely the energy level. And what I

definitely the energy level. And what I love too is because I mean they they all

love too is because I mean they they all know they're a blank canvas. They all

know they're a blank canvas. They all know they're coming coming to me with

know they're coming coming to me with very little experience. The nice thing

very little experience. The nice thing is like getting them right out of school

is like getting them right out of school is they still have kind of that that

is they still have kind of that that learning energy and and kind of they're

learning energy and and kind of they're just a sponge because right they're

just a sponge because right they're they're used that's what they did for

they're used that's what they did for the last four years. And so I I pitched

the last four years. And so I I pitched that to them as well, like, hey, don't

that to them as well, like, hey, don't come in here expecting you're going to

come in here expecting you're going to know everything because you have close

know everything because you have close to no experience. So you need to be a

to no experience. So you need to be a sponge. We're gonna figure out what your

sponge. We're gonna figure out what your challenges are, what your weaknesses

challenges are, what your weaknesses are, and we're going to work towards you

are, and we're going to work towards you overcoming those. But yeah, definitely

overcoming those. But yeah, definitely to be honest, like if somebody comes to

to be honest, like if somebody comes to me and applies for this role and they

me and applies for this role and they have three or four years experience,

have three or four years experience, it's a very big big red flag to me

it's a very big big red flag to me because this isn't the type of role that

because this isn't the type of role that you should be in for three or four years

you should be in for three or four years if you're good. Um, and I'm even telling

if you're good. Um, and I'm even telling I mean that's the great thing too is now

I mean that's the great thing too is now as we we've grown and we've gotten more

as we we've grown and we've gotten more mature. We've been around for two years.

mature. We've been around for two years. So now we have employees that have been

So now we have employees that have been here for 18 months and have gotten

here for 18 months and have gotten promoted internally. Um, and we've also

promoted internally. Um, and we've also had situations now where employees have

had situations now where employees have been getting hired by our clients

been getting hired by our clients because they've they've loved them. Like

because they've they've loved them. Like we had one it just happened in Jan uh

we had one it just happened in Jan uh June where a guy came to us actually no

June where a guy came to us actually no college experience. He was a valet here

college experience. He was a valet here at a a very nice restaurant downtown and

at a a very nice restaurant downtown and came to us, grinded it out, struggled a

came to us, grinded it out, struggled a little bit at first. So much so that

little bit at first. So much so that like there was a point in time where I

like there was a point in time where I sat him down. I was like, "Hey, if

sat him down. I was like, "Hey, if things don't pick up this month, this

things don't pick up this month, this might be your last month with us." Yeah.

might be your last month with us." Yeah. But but he took it upon himself to have

But but he took it upon himself to have that success, grinded it out, and again,

that success, grinded it out, and again, that's where you kind of need like that

that's where you kind of need like that north star. He he even in the beginning

north star. He he even in the beginning like he told me I remember when we

like he told me I remember when we interviewed uh he was reading fanatical

interviewed uh he was reading fanatical prospecting and uh he just had kind of

prospecting and uh he just had kind of this bluecollar background but was very

this bluecollar background but was very interested and motivated to get into

interested and motivated to get into tech sales and understood as somebody

tech sales and understood as somebody without a college degree it probably

without a college degree it probably would be very challenging for him to get

would be very challenging for him to get his foot in the door but he put it upon

his foot in the door but he put it upon himself. He figured out what he needed

himself. He figured out what he needed to figure out. Did a great job and just

to figure out. Did a great job and just became the first account executive for

became the first account executive for our our we have a client that's really

our our we have a client that's really just cooking with gas and closing like

just cooking with gas and closing like 60% of what we're passing to them. So

60% of what we're passing to them. So great great to see on that side. Um, but

great great to see on that side. Um, but yeah, definitely the energy. There are

yeah, definitely the energy. There are some and I'm trying to learn better as

some and I'm trying to learn better as time goes on. Spotting the ones that

time goes on. Spotting the ones that might be susceptible to burning out

might be susceptible to burning out because that is the reality of burnout

because that is the reality of burnout is is common. Oddly enough, not oddly

is is common. Oddly enough, not oddly enough, it's it's not really a surprise.

enough, it's it's not really a surprise. But what's crazy is a year ago, I think

But what's crazy is a year ago, I think we had two female employees. A year ago,

we had two female employees. A year ago, we only had seven employees in total.

we only had seven employees in total. Now we have 20. So like growth as a

Now we have 20. So like growth as a whole has been bigger.

whole has been bigger. That's awesome.

That's awesome. But as of So yeah, we have a a woman

But as of So yeah, we have a a woman Lauren. She came out at John Carroll. It

Lauren. She came out at John Carroll. It was just a local university here. First

was just a local university here. First female employee. But before that, it was

female employee. But before that, it was just a bunch of guys. All of our social

just a bunch of guys. All of our social media probably looked like we were a

media probably looked like we were a frat house, which probably also kept

frat house, which probably also kept female applicants from applying. Now

female applicants from applying. Now though, our BDR team is more than 50%

though, our BDR team is more than 50% female. And for whatever reason, I I

female. And for whatever reason, I I think you hear it sometimes, maturity

think you hear it sometimes, maturity levels and so forth at like that that

levels and so forth at like that that level, that age.

level, that age. Yeah.

Yeah. I think there's something there. I've

I think there's something there. I've reprimanded every single male employee

reprimanded every single male employee that's worked here at least once for

that's worked here at least once for doing just some stupid boneheaded thing.

doing just some stupid boneheaded thing. Right.

Right. I have yet over since we've had female

I have yet over since we've had female employees for the last 18 months have

employees for the last 18 months have never reprimanded any of the female

never reprimanded any of the female employees for doing anything dumb. They

employees for doing anything dumb. They just come in, roll up their sleeves, get

just come in, roll up their sleeves, get to work, and and have a tremendous

to work, and and have a tremendous success rate. But sorry, another

success rate. But sorry, another long-winded tangent.

long-winded tangent. No, no, that's great. That's great.

No, no, that's great. That's great. On on kind of our our thought process

On on kind of our our thought process around who we who we bring in here.

around who we who we bring in here. Yeah, that's awesome. So, so Rep 2X

Yeah, that's awesome. So, so Rep 2X began as your an internal system inside

began as your an internal system inside 135. What convinced you it should become

135. What convinced you it should become its own product?

its own product? Yeah, great, great question. So, and I

Yeah, great, great question. So, and I saw you posting about him recently. So,

saw you posting about him recently. So, a big inspiration for for me from years

a big inspiration for for me from years ago was was Jason Freed, the whole 37

ago was was Jason Freed, the whole 37 signal story, starting a service company

signal story, starting a service company to to get a product off the ground. So,

to to get a product off the ground. So, that has been my pathway, my goal, my

that has been my pathway, my goal, my objective from the beginning. That's why

objective from the beginning. That's why I started us the way we did. I had a

I started us the way we did. I had a startup right out of college when I was

startup right out of college when I was 23. We back when sure you remember this

23. We back when sure you remember this era like right when the YC combinator

era like right when the YC combinator the Y the YC company started getting

the Y the YC company started getting some some traction and some press that

some some traction and some press that everybody and their brother tried to

everybody and their brother tried to make an accelerator and so like even

make an accelerator and so like even here in Cleveland we're not a big tech

here in Cleveland we're not a big tech city. I think when I graduated college

city. I think when I graduated college there were like three or four and they

there were like three or four and they were each throwing like 25,000 per per

were each throwing like 25,000 per per company in their portfolio. So I went

company in their portfolio. So I went [snorts] through an accelerator program

[snorts] through an accelerator program here. We raised 25K. Also just showing

here. We raised 25K. Also just showing you the differences in in eras. We

you the differences in in eras. We ultimately never got off the ground

ultimately never got off the ground because of the development work that

because of the development work that would have had to happen. It was a

would have had to happen. It was a essentially a a platform to connect tech

essentially a a platform to connect tech transfer out of universities with

transfer out of universities with organizations that want to take that

organizations that want to take that tech and commercialize it. Now if vibe

tech and commercialize it. Now if vibe coding and so forth, if I wanted to make

coding and so forth, if I wanted to make that over the course of a weekend, I

that over the course of a weekend, I probably could build an MVP for that.

probably could build an MVP for that. But ultimately, like that's why we

But ultimately, like that's why we crashed and burned. And back then at 23,

crashed and burned. And back then at 23, I was like, one, we're in Cleveland.

I was like, one, we're in Cleveland. Like it's super hard to raise money

Like it's super hard to raise money here. And and two, like

here. And and two, like entrepreneurship, I I driven to that

entrepreneurship, I I driven to that because I want to be my own boss. I

because I want to be my own boss. I don't really want anybody checking in on

don't really want anybody checking in on me or or giving me any type of any type

me or or giving me any type of any type of voices in my ear telling me any which

of voices in my ear telling me any which way I should go. Later on, I was working

way I should go. Later on, I was working for I told you a little bit earlier,

for I told you a little bit earlier, block a blockchain development shop and

block a blockchain development shop and and they were big fans of 37 signal

and they were big fans of 37 signal story. And so that's how I started

story. And so that's how I started finding out about them and and signal

finding out about them and and signal versus noise and all that. And so then I

versus noise and all that. And so then I was like, okay, I'm gonna start buying

was like, okay, I'm gonna start buying rental properties, start this company

rental properties, start this company up. Sorry again, a little bit of a

up. Sorry again, a little bit of a tangent, but kind of connecting to some

tangent, but kind of connecting to some some interest I know that you have.

some interest I know that you have. Keep going. Keep going. Yeah.

Keep going. Keep going. Yeah. Yeah. And I've I've hit up Jason a few

Yeah. And I've I've hit up Jason a few times to just give him updates because

times to just give him updates because again I hopefully he he enjoys that and

again I hopefully he he enjoys that and he does reply to me. But but tremendous

he does reply to me. But but tremendous story and so that's always been a big a

story and so that's always been a big a big motivator for me. And so 135 was

big motivator for me. And so 135 was started with that. As I was like

started with that. As I was like starting up the company, I was at home

starting up the company, I was at home playing with Chad GBT. This was like

playing with Chad GBT. This was like February of 24. And I was just hitting

February of 24. And I was just hitting buttons and all of a sudden the thing is

buttons and all of a sudden the thing is talking to me and I was like I didn't

talking to me and I was like I didn't realize you could talk to this thing.

realize you could talk to this thing. And so at the time I was working the

And so at the time I was working the before 135 I was the head of sales for

before 135 I was the head of sales for an ondemand nurse staffing platform

an ondemand nurse staffing platform called Nurse Dash. And so I was like hey

called Nurse Dash. And so I was like hey act like you're a nursing home

act like you're a nursing home administrator and I'm going to pitch you

administrator and I'm going to pitch you nurse Dash. And that's all I told it.

nurse Dash. And that's all I told it. and like the depth and accuracy of of

and like the depth and accuracy of of the the the bot out of the box like that

the the the bot out of the box like that really got some things kind of spinning

really got some things kind of spinning in my head and I was like, "Okay,

in my head and I was like, "Okay, traditional roleplay scenarios, spending

traditional roleplay scenarios, spending a lot of of time on that. There there

a lot of of time on that. There there could be something here." And so from

could be something here." And so from the beginning, we have our our BDR

the beginning, we have our our BDR manager was my very first hire in May of

manager was my very first hire in May of 24. He came in during his spring break,

24. He came in during his spring break, college, his college spring break. I

college, his college spring break. I gave him my phone. He talked to Chad GBT

gave him my phone. He talked to Chad GBT and he did our roleplay. As time has

and he did our roleplay. As time has gone on, we've developed that into Rep

gone on, we've developed that into Rep 2X. So now it's a platform and all of

2X. So now it's a platform and all of our candidates go through that. The

our candidates go through that. The platform has been around for about I

platform has been around for about I think it was like February of 25 that I

think it was like February of 25 that I I fully built that and came out with

I fully built that and came out with that. But the whole goal this whole time

that. But the whole goal this whole time was for this to become our thing and and

was for this to become our thing and and essentially have the profit from 135

essentially have the profit from 135 boost essentially serve as the funding

boost essentially serve as the funding for rep 2x.

for rep 2x. Right?

Right? So really as long as as 135 has been a

So really as long as as 135 has been a thing, rep 2x has also been a a thing

thing, rep 2x has also been a a thing internally that everybody knew about,

internally that everybody knew about, but we just weren't really actively

but we just weren't really actively promoting it. And so as time went on, it

promoting it. And so as time went on, it was okay, well now we're we're kind of

was okay, well now we're we're kind of getting things ready to go. Let's figure

getting things ready to go. Let's figure out where we want to we want to when and

out where we want to we want to when and and where we want to get this thing off

and where we want to get this thing off the ground. And so it just felt like the

the ground. And so it just felt like the right time to do this at the beginning

right time to do this at the beginning of the year. So my first BDR is now the

of the year. So my first BDR is now the manager of the team at 135. My second

manager of the team at 135. My second most tenure BDR, I made him full sales

most tenure BDR, I made him full sales cycle account executive as of January

cycle account executive as of January 1st. And so now January 1st even it was

1st. And so now January 1st even it was kind of out of the box a good use case

kind of out of the box a good use case for us to be able to analyze put your

for us to be able to analyze put your candidates through roleplay scenarios

candidates through roleplay scenarios get scored and ranked and all that. And

get scored and ranked and all that. And now as time has gone on like we've made

now as time has gone on like we've made tremendous adjustments as we've gotten

tremendous adjustments as we've gotten just more product feedback and so forth

just more product feedback and so forth from from other companies. But now it's

from from other companies. But now it's also started to turn more into a a tool

also started to turn more into a a tool obviously to to analyze your candidates

obviously to to analyze your candidates but also help with the ramping and

but also help with the ramping and onboarding to help your ramps wrap up

onboarding to help your ramps wrap up ramp up faster with their conversations

ramp up faster with their conversations and and hopefully have better success

and and hopefully have better success quicker. kind of all tying together

quicker. kind of all tying together though, right? Like having having either

though, right? Like having having either getting the right people in the door

getting the right people in the door from the get-go, once you get those

from the get-go, once you get those people in the door, get them ready to go

people in the door, get them ready to go to to really see if they are who who you

to to really see if they are who who you thought they were because I mean that

thought they were because I mean that that was the big thing over in in my

that was the big thing over in in my role previously as head of sales for a

role previously as head of sales for a startup. I hired people that I thought

startup. I hired people that I thought were going to be great because they

were going to be great because they interviewed great. They said all the

interviewed great. They said all the right things. You get them into the

right things. You get them into the role, after a month or two, you go,

role, after a month or two, you go, "Hey, you're not who I thought you

"Hey, you're not who I thought you were." Um, and so that's kind of the

were." Um, and so that's kind of the goal and objective there is to help vet

goal and objective there is to help vet that out a little bit more before maybe

that out a little bit more before maybe you make a bad hiring decision.

you make a bad hiring decision. And so, so like what is one of the hard

And so, so like what is one of the hard things about creating that simulation?

things about creating that simulation? So like you're using scoring, there's

So like you're using scoring, there's like selling style evaluation like where

like selling style evaluation like where do you spend your time adjusting the

do you spend your time adjusting the product based on like I know it's in

product based on like I know it's in flight but where do you get to spend the

flight but where do you get to spend the time and trying to improve it? because

time and trying to improve it? because like you said it's simulation is a

like you said it's simulation is a really good I think indicator but you

really good I think indicator but you have to kind of really tune it to make

have to kind of really tune it to make sure it per a person performs in the

sure it per a person performs in the real world close to that simulation.

real world close to that simulation. Yeah. So so knowing that it was

Yeah. So so knowing that it was something that we wanted to to be

something that we wanted to to be selling at some point that a lot of the

selling at some point that a lot of the tweaking a lot of the adjustments was

tweaking a lot of the adjustments was from like February of 25 until January

from like February of 25 until January of this year. And so that's where you

of this year. And so that's where you know I originally Are you familiar with

know I originally Are you familiar with Bland? It's like a AI phone system.

Bland? It's like a AI phone system. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like the

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like the phone tree logic.

phone tree logic. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I remember.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I remember. So, so version one of Rep 2X was again I

So, so version one of Rep 2X was again I would literally hand my phone to the

would literally hand my phone to the candidates coming in for the interview

candidates coming in for the interview and they would talk to my phone on chat

and they would talk to my phone on chat GBT. Version two was actually bland. So,

GBT. Version two was actually bland. So, I I built an LLM to and it's been the

I I built an LLM to and it's been the same scenario the whole time. It's a

same scenario the whole time. It's a knockoff of the very first company I

knockoff of the very first company I worked for on Shift. So, it's a

worked for on Shift. So, it's a scheduling software for nursing homes,

scheduling software for nursing homes, for nurse staffing that you're pitching.

for nurse staffing that you're pitching. And then whenever you're ready, you give

And then whenever you're ready, you give Sarah a call and Sarah is trained to act

Sarah a call and Sarah is trained to act like a nursing home administrator. And

like a nursing home administrator. And so, Bland was kind of version two where

so, Bland was kind of version two where I would go through and just every time

I would go through and just every time listen to the call. I would I would

listen to the call. I would I would import the transcript in the in the chat

import the transcript in the in the chat GBT and and kind of do some analysis on

GBT and and kind of do some analysis on there. But then again, from February, it

there. But then again, from February, it was okay, we have this now, we have this

was okay, we have this now, we have this scoring mechanism that we're building

scoring mechanism that we're building and kind of vetting out. And so, that's

and kind of vetting out. And so, that's that's where a lot of the tweaking and

that's where a lot of the tweaking and adjustments have been. the the tool

adjustments have been. the the tool until January, it was mostly for like a

until January, it was mostly for like a cold call or a cold outreach scenario,

cold call or a cold outreach scenario, whether that you could do it for like a

whether that you could do it for like a door-to-d dooror scenario or whatever.

door-to-d dooror scenario or whatever. And now, as time has gone on, we're

And now, as time has gone on, we're getting the more of, oh, hey, well, we

getting the more of, oh, hey, well, we get a lot of inbound leads for our

get a lot of inbound leads for our company or we do a lot of we also want

company or we do a lot of we also want our account executives, we want to be

our account executives, we want to be able to to vet out how, you know, their

able to to vet out how, you know, their discovery calls are going and so forth.

discovery calls are going and so forth. And so, that's where we're just working

And so, that's where we're just working really closely with those companies to

really closely with those companies to get a sense of of what's working, what's

get a sense of of what's working, what's not. I would say the really cool thing

not. I would say the really cool thing too and it's it's obviously how I would

too and it's it's obviously how I would hope it would be but it is it is in fact

hope it would be but it is it is in fact what we see is so for our our situation

what we see is so for our our situation I rep 2X is a third step of our

I rep 2X is a third step of our interview process. So all of our

interview process. So all of our candidates do it after they do the call

candidates do it after they do the call it's about 5 to seven minutes. It gets

it's about 5 to seven minutes. It gets scored on 10 different metrics. They get

scored on 10 different metrics. They get an overall score. They get feedback on

an overall score. They get feedback on what they could have done better

what they could have done better recommendations. So, of those 10

recommendations. So, of those 10 metrics, it's things like your

metrics, it's things like your discovery, your objection handling, your

discovery, your objection handling, your your conversational pacing, and and

your conversational pacing, and and there's a weighted difference of of what

there's a weighted difference of of what matters and what doesn't. The thing

matters and what doesn't. The thing that's been really interesting though is

that's been really interesting though is for those that we've hired when I've

for those that we've hired when I've gone back then and said, "Okay, you've

gone back then and said, "Okay, you've been with us for 6 months." I'm curious

been with us for 6 months." I'm curious now, how did you do on rep 2x? A lot of

now, how did you do on rep 2x? A lot of times the things that are pointed out in

times the things that are pointed out in in rep 2x on the call is maybe being

in rep 2x on the call is maybe being their weakness. Because it it compares

their weakness. Because it it compares everybody together. So, it tells you on

everybody together. So, it tells you on each metric uh like percentile wise how

each metric uh like percentile wise how you compare based on your score. I

you compare based on your score. I remember we we brought on a guy last

remember we we brought on a guy last November in that fiveminute rep 2X call.

November in that fiveminute rep 2X call. Objection handling was something that he

Objection handling was something that he got dinged hard on. Sure enough, after

got dinged hard on. Sure enough, after two or three weeks of him being here and

two or three weeks of him being here and getting into the phone calls, objection

getting into the phone calls, objection handling is is what he was getting just

handling is is what he was getting just completely rad over the coals on. And

completely rad over the coals on. And so, that's that's also what's been

so, that's that's also what's been really cool is is and adjusting from

really cool is is and adjusting from there. Like if if you know, listen, I I

there. Like if if you know, listen, I I listen to every single call that comes

listen to every single call that comes through. Um, and obviously spot check if

through. Um, and obviously spot check if anything seems completely out of the

anything seems completely out of the ordinary. But that's that's where a lot

ordinary. But that's that's where a lot of the adjustments have come. And now

of the adjustments have come. And now just because we have companies using it

just because we have companies using it and because we have 135 going, most of

and because we have 135 going, most of the time I spend on that. I I'm still

the time I spend on that. I I'm still the one that's developing and tweaking

the one that's developing and tweaking that, but it's like 4 to 7 in the

that, but it's like 4 to 7 in the morning before I I I come in and start

morning before I I I come in and start the day here.

the day here. Wow. So you you're doing a lot of I

Wow. So you you're doing a lot of I guess listening to the calls how they

guess listening to the calls how they unfold and then are you adjusting the

unfold and then are you adjusting the model like or the waiting or the scores

model like or the waiting or the scores or do you keep it fairly consistent

or do you keep it fairly consistent until you have a large enough data set

until you have a large enough data set like what's been your approach?

like what's been your approach? Yeah, recently we we haven't adjusted it

Yeah, recently we we haven't adjusted it I don't think since since February of

I don't think since since February of this year. We've kept it pretty constant

this year. We've kept it pretty constant because it's it's it doesn't seem to be

because it's it's it doesn't seem to be too broken because that's the same

too broken because that's the same thing, right? You want to have like

thing, right? You want to have like you're saying yes. You want to have

you're saying yes. You want to have enough of a sample size to work off of,

enough of a sample size to work off of, but then you also want to have it where

but then you also want to have it where you want to keep the the scoring

you want to keep the the scoring mechanism constant or at least make it

mechanism constant or at least make it visible if we do end up changing it.

visible if we do end up changing it. That is the one piece like people have

That is the one piece like people have asked, hey, can we can we change the

asked, hey, can we can we change the weights? Right now it's all kind of

weights? Right now it's all kind of hardcoded. That is something we might or

hardcoded. That is something we might or like because there are even different

like because there are even different mechanisms of of different types of

mechanisms of of different types of sales, right? There's or different sales

sales, right? There's or different sales methodologies. You have like the the

methodologies. You have like the the Sandler sales or the challenger sales or

Sandler sales or the challenger sales or whatever else. And so that's something

whatever else. And so that's something people have been asking for is like,

people have been asking for is like, hey, you know, we're we're a a SAS

hey, you know, we're we're a a SAS company and we really believe in Sandler

company and we really believe in Sandler sales, so can you make these weights a

sales, so can you make these weights a little bit more relevant to that? And so

little bit more relevant to that? And so that might be kind

that might be kind That's interesting.

That's interesting. Yeah. Or or folks asking if they can

Yeah. Or or folks asking if they can just physically be the ones to adjust

just physically be the ones to adjust the weights themselves,

the weights themselves, right?

right? Maybe there's a future product iteration

Maybe there's a future product iteration there where you can kind of onboard your

there where you can kind of onboard your own internal system to the

own internal system to the the training. That's interesting. Um, so

the training. That's interesting. Um, so going and like just looking to the

going and like just looking to the future for a moment because AI makes it

future for a moment because AI makes it easy to polish both interview prep,

easy to polish both interview prep, resumes, even research, etc. Do do you

resumes, even research, etc. Do do you see a future where demonstrated

see a future where demonstrated performance is like a credential that

performance is like a credential that you can carry with you? Do you see that

you can carry with you? Do you see that future? And I I don't mean write it

future? And I I don't mean write it down, but actual demonstrated

down, but actual demonstrated performance, whether it's a recording or

performance, whether it's a recording or or a testing or something of that nature

or a testing or something of that nature in sales.

in sales. Yes, I I definitely do. So there there's

Yes, I I definitely do. So there there's a whole other part of Rep 2X that like

a whole other part of Rep 2X that like we're still trying to figure out how it

we're still trying to figure out how it plays in and and where to put our our

plays in and and where to put our our focus on it. But any individual can come

focus on it. But any individual can come in off the street and make a a Rep 2X

in off the street and make a a Rep 2X account. There are when you do that,

account. There are when you do that, you're not like companies can invite

you're not like companies can invite their candidates. When those individuals

their candidates. When those individuals come in, they only see that company that

come in, they only see that company that they're applying for. If you are just

they're applying for. If you are just Joe Schmo and you come across Rep 2X and

Joe Schmo and you come across Rep 2X and you go on and make an account, you

you go on and make an account, you actually have a series of generic

actually have a series of generic roleplay scenarios. So, it tells you,

roleplay scenarios. So, it tells you, hey, these are they're just like very

hey, these are they're just like very like I think one's a knockoff of maybe

like I think one's a knockoff of maybe like an Uber Eats or a Yelp type

like an Uber Eats or a Yelp type situation. Very easy to comprehend type

situation. Very easy to comprehend type of offerings that you're pitching. And

of offerings that you're pitching. And we call that originally we were calling

we call that originally we were calling it the triple crown where you would try

it the triple crown where you would try to promote that you do three of them.

to promote that you do three of them. Whoever has the best score after a

Whoever has the best score after a certain time frame is going to get 500

certain time frame is going to get 500 bucks. And that was the idea of it where

bucks. And that was the idea of it where individuals can come in off the street

individuals can come in off the street because again if not so much for us like

because again if not so much for us like we're we're fully in office here in

we're we're fully in office here in Cleveland, Ohio. So we're not

Cleveland, Ohio. So we're not overflowing with applicants at any given

overflowing with applicants at any given time. But if this was a remote role, I'

time. But if this was a remote role, I' I've posted remote roles before just

I've posted remote roles before just more so out of curiosity to see what

more so out of curiosity to see what would happen. And within 48 hours you

would happen. And within 48 hours you have like 700 applicants. And that is a

have like 700 applicants. And that is a very broken system where on one side if

very broken system where on one side if you're the manager, how are you going to

you're the manager, how are you going to actually know who to spend time focusing

actually know who to spend time focusing your your efforts on? Because again,

your your efforts on? Because again, yes, you can you can keyword the

yes, you can you can keyword the optimize the hell out of your resume

optimize the hell out of your resume with AI or whatever else, but like is

with AI or whatever else, but like is that really helpful once everybody else

that really helpful once everybody else does it? And on the flip side, if you're

does it? And on the flip side, if you're one of those 700 applicants, how are you

one of those 700 applicants, how are you going to stand out aside from the

going to stand out aside from the resume? And so that's where we're we're

resume? And so that's where we're we're still figuring out how that plays in.

still figuring out how that plays in. But that's kind of the idea of giving

But that's kind of the idea of giving these individuals the ability to go on,

these individuals the ability to go on, they do these generic role plays, they

they do these generic role plays, they actually get what's called a rep 2x

actually get what's called a rep 2x score. And then the cool thing is, I

score. And then the cool thing is, I mean, that was the plan, but they have a

mean, that was the plan, but they have a sharable page that they can then link

sharable page that they can then link back to their LinkedIn as a as their own

back to their LinkedIn as a as their own type of credentiing, their own

type of credentiing, their own certification that they can say, "Hey,"

certification that they can say, "Hey," and people have been putting it on

and people have been putting it on LinkedIn, you know, of of the 200 or 50

LinkedIn, you know, of of the 200 or 50 250 BDR candidates that have done the

250 BDR candidates that have done the Rep 2X challenge, I'm in the top 5% and

Rep 2X challenge, I'm in the top 5% and here's a link to to my almost like a

here's a link to to my almost like a digital baseball card,

digital baseball card, right?

right? So, yes, I I think as time goes on,

So, yes, I I think as time goes on, because that's always been the thing

because that's always been the thing that's so interesting about sales is

that's so interesting about sales is that super super quantifiable

that super super quantifiable internally, right? Everybody has KPIs

internally, right? Everybody has KPIs and goals and and so quotas and so

and goals and and so quotas and so forth. None of that data ever comes

forth. None of that data ever comes external. You can put it in your resume,

external. You can put it in your resume, but there's no verification. Nobody's

but there's no verification. Nobody's really and and also like if you're if

really and and also like if you're if you're a company, you're not going to sh

you're a company, you're not going to sh you're not going to share how how great

you're not going to share how how great your best rep is because that's going to

your best rep is because that's going to make them very attractive to leave,

make them very attractive to leave, right?

right? And so same I was compared to like

And so same I was compared to like LeBron James, right? If LeBron James

LeBron James, right? If LeBron James came up there to Toronto and he wanted

came up there to Toronto and he wanted to go to the Raptors, they know his

to go to the Raptors, they know his stats and his stats are going to

stats and his stats are going to correlate to what they're going to pay

correlate to what they're going to pay him. It'd be like if if LeBron just goes

him. It'd be like if if LeBron just goes around the different teams, nobody knows

around the different teams, nobody knows his stats and you're just going based on

his stats and you're just going based on how great LeBron says he is. That's

how great LeBron says he is. That's that's kind of like how sales

that's kind of like how sales historically has been. And so that's

historically has been. And so that's that's where we're we're trying to build

that's where we're we're trying to build out that side of things, too, where you

out that side of things, too, where you can make it so on an apples to apples

can make it so on an apples to apples basis, you're giving some type of level

basis, you're giving some type of level of comparison of of one over the other,

of comparison of of one over the other, whether it's for your internal

whether it's for your internal candidates or if you're you're a

candidates or if you're you're a candidate on the street looking to to

candidate on the street looking to to stand out for your next role. Yeah, I

stand out for your next role. Yeah, I think you actually hit the the broad

think you actually hit the the broad knowledgebased economy in in its

knowledgebased economy in in its entirety. Like everyone is everyone is

entirety. Like everyone is everyone is LeBron James on their resume, but like

LeBron James on their resume, but like you don't know who actually plays that

you don't know who actually plays that way. So that's a really strong point.

way. So that's a really strong point. However, in the era we're in now, proof

However, in the era we're in now, proof like GitHub, vibecoded apps, your like

like GitHub, vibecoded apps, your like you said like your rep 2, these are

you said like your rep 2, these are becoming more and more valuable in the

becoming more and more valuable in the interviewing cycle. just moving away

interviewing cycle. just moving away from just kind of focusing on you for a

from just kind of focusing on you for a moment in a rapid fire scenario if

moment in a rapid fire scenario if that's okay. You mentioned you're up

that's okay. You mentioned you're up you're up at 4 am. You're already

you're up at 4 am. You're already grinding, you're improving the product

grinding, you're improving the product when you're not focused on building your

when you're not focused on building your businesses. What helps you quiet your

businesses. What helps you quiet your mind?

mind? I'm sure some people like I'm not that

I'm sure some people like I'm not that type of person. I I think that is

type of person. I I think that is actually where I've listened to

actually where I've listened to obviously a lot of podcasts of him.

obviously a lot of podcasts of him. Jason Freed, I think he's he's a big

Jason Freed, I think he's he's a big believer in having that that downtime. I

believer in having that that downtime. I don't so much have that. I don't really

don't so much have that. I don't really I don't really get I understand why

I don't really get I understand why people need it. I'm not saying that. I I

people need it. I'm not saying that. I I just personally never feel like that

just personally never feel like that burnout. If you were to ask me when I

burnout. If you were to ask me when I was a senior in high school or a senior

was a senior in high school or a senior in college like what I wanted to do for

in college like what I wanted to do for a career, it was start a business. And

a career, it was start a business. And so like that that motivates me in in

so like that that motivates me in in itself. I've yet to over the last two

itself. I've yet to over the last two years, I don't think there's been a

years, I don't think there's been a single time where I've I've dreaded

single time where I've I've dreaded going to the office. I'm always I'm

going to the office. I'm always I'm always super enthusiastic to come in.

always super enthusiastic to come in. Whether or not my employees are feeling

Whether or not my employees are feeling that enthusiasm themselves, maybe on a

that enthusiasm themselves, maybe on a Monday morning is is a different story.

Monday morning is is a different story. But but that and it like this is this is

But but that and it like this is this is what I I worked towards for the last 10

what I I worked towards for the last 10 years. again doing a very different

years. again doing a very different pathway than than a lot of folks maybe

pathway than than a lot of folks maybe would if they're trying to get a product

would if they're trying to get a product off the ground and go after venture

off the ground and go after venture funding. Like it's a quicker pathway if

funding. Like it's a quicker pathway if you want to do that. Also has its own

you want to do that. Also has its own challenges though. But but uh yeah that

challenges though. But but uh yeah that so I mean I I work out I have I did get

so I mean I I work out I have I did get a dog maybe about a year ago for that

a dog maybe about a year ago for that reason. I was like I need something to

reason. I was like I need something to be my buffer or else I'm just going to

be my buffer or else I'm just going to spend way too much time in the office.

spend way too much time in the office. So that was I got him maybe six months

So that was I got him maybe six months after we we kind of opened up the office

after we we kind of opened up the office and that was partly why. So, I mean,

and that was partly why. So, I mean, hanging out with him, walking him

hanging out with him, walking him through the local parks and so forth.

through the local parks and so forth. Just being an athlete growing up, I I

Just being an athlete growing up, I I still try to stay in the gym and work

still try to stay in the gym and work out, but still very much working a lot,

out, but still very much working a lot, but also not not feeling burnt out by

but also not not feeling burnt out by any means.

any means. That's really That's so So, like the the

That's really That's so So, like the the gym is somewhere your mind quiets, at

gym is somewhere your mind quiets, at least focusing on what you're doing

least focusing on what you're doing there.

there. Yeah. Yeah. So, I actually I have a

Yeah. Yeah. So, I actually I have a three-bedroom house and maybe during

three-bedroom house and maybe during this time, maybe like a year and a half

this time, maybe like a year and a half ago, I converted a bedroom I had into a

ago, I converted a bedroom I had into a gym. So, I have like a squat rack and a

gym. So, I have like a squat rack and a rowing machine and a treadmill, which is

rowing machine and a treadmill, which is really all I need.

really all I need. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's that's kind of my little

And that's that's kind of my little escape.

escape. Very cool. So, you mentioned Jason Freed

Very cool. So, you mentioned Jason Freed a few times, but maybe that that's one

a few times, but maybe that that's one of the people that you are inspired

of the people that you are inspired [snorts] by or try to emulate. Is there

[snorts] by or try to emulate. Is there any other business leaders that you

any other business leaders that you bring into your day-to-day practice?

bring into your day-to-day practice? No, not not really actually. Like I we

No, not not really actually. Like I we we did this a couple months ago where we

we did this a couple months ago where we we do this thing called a Thursday

we do this thing called a Thursday whiteboard where it's for us to like

whiteboard where it's for us to like learn about mostly new employees and so

learn about mostly new employees and so they'll go up and ideally for 30 minutes

they'll go up and ideally for 30 minutes they'll just whiteboard something they

they'll just whiteboard something they know well to kind of teach the employees

know well to kind of teach the employees and it could be a wide variety like we

and it could be a wide variety like we had one today of how to buy a car but at

had one today of how to buy a car but at one point we ran out of those and so I

one point we ran out of those and so I was like all right guys you know most of

was like all right guys you know most of it's like a year and a half into the

it's like a year and a half into the company. I was like, I'll just sit here

company. I was like, I'll just sit here for an hour and you guys just pepper me

for an hour and you guys just pepper me with whatever questions you have. And

with whatever questions you have. And one of them asked that. And I think they

one of them asked that. And I think they were kind of let down because I was

were kind of let down because I was like, they're like, who's a big, you

like, they're like, who's a big, you know, who's a big inspiration? And I

know, who's a big inspiration? And I mean, the the 37 signals, it's more of

mean, the the 37 signals, it's more of like the story in itself because up

like the story in itself because up until I had heard that, like everything

until I had heard that, like everything I had heard was, oh, you got to go after

I had heard was, oh, you got to go after venture funding. You have to do that

venture funding. You have to do that whole dance. and then hearing, "Oh,

whole dance. and then hearing, "Oh, here's a company also a Great Lakes

here's a company also a Great Lakes company out of Chicago that has been

company out of Chicago that has been killing it for 20 years, 20 plus years

killing it for 20 years, 20 plus years doing doing just that and avoiding that

doing doing just that and avoiding that whole noise." That's that's been the

whole noise." That's that's been the huge inspiration. I mean, no, I I I I

huge inspiration. I mean, no, I I I I enjoy a lot of different podcasts

enjoy a lot of different podcasts occasionally. Um, but but I try to kind

occasionally. Um, but but I try to kind of steer my own path.

of steer my own path. That's I mean, I really appreciate that.

That's I mean, I really appreciate that. And I think it sounds like it's not the

And I think it sounds like it's not the people, but it's the process that

people, but it's the process that unfolds with their actions. And you

unfolds with their actions. And you sound like someone that's the process is

sound like someone that's the process is driving you in your business building.

driving you in your business building. So

So yeah, very authentic answer.

yeah, very authentic answer. I I love I love the stories of like the

I I love I love the stories of like the start, too. Like so here in Cleveland,

start, too. Like so here in Cleveland, our our OG big entrepreneur was John D.

our our OG big entrepreneur was John D. Rockefeller in the early late 1800s,

Rockefeller in the early late 1800s, early 1900s. There's a book, a biography

early 1900s. There's a book, a biography about him called Titan that's like I

about him called Titan that's like I don't know 900 pages or something. I

don't know 900 pages or something. I remember I read it. Once I got to the

remember I read it. Once I got to the point of like Standard Oil being at like

point of like Standard Oil being at like the monopoly level, I kind of got bored.

the monopoly level, I kind of got bored. But and that's like halfway through the

But and that's like halfway through the book. The second half is like how he

book. The second half is like how he dealt with the riches and all that or at

dealt with the riches and all that or at least I think so because I didn't even

least I think so because I didn't even read that part. Like I I love I love the

read that part. Like I I love I love the the starting point, you know, and that's

the starting point, you know, and that's that's actually didn't mean to bring

that's actually didn't mean to bring this in, but that's that's what 13 I

this in, but that's that's what 13 I don't know if you saw that on the

don't know if you saw that on the website. 135 is the average angle of a

website. 135 is the average angle of a hockey stick. And so, you know, that's

hockey stick. And so, you know, that's trying to help our clients get the

trying to help our clients get the hockey stick growth. That's that's what

hockey stick growth. That's that's what I love. and and so uh yeah in any type

I love. and and so uh yeah in any type of story entrepreneurship and so forth I

of story entrepreneurship and so forth I just I love hearing about somebody going

just I love hearing about somebody going from zero to one and and getting things

from zero to one and and getting things off the ground.

off the ground. Wow that's yeah I mean that that's

Wow that's yeah I mean that that's spoken like a true founder of of many

spoken like a true founder of of many businesses. One final question to end

businesses. One final question to end on. What does success look like for you?

on. What does success look like for you? Like ultimately like what's what are you

Like ultimately like what's what are you driving towards?

driving towards? Yeah, that's a great question.

Yeah, that's a great question. Unfortunately, I'm probably not going to

Unfortunately, I'm probably not going to have a great answer to it. I'm I'm I I

have a great answer to it. I'm I'm I I know who I am. I'm going to be that

know who I am. I'm going to be that person that no matter like how

person that no matter like how successful I am, I'm still going to be

successful I am, I'm still going to be pushing for more. Like, you know, some

pushing for more. Like, you know, some people would look at us from the outside

people would look at us from the outside and go, "Hey, it's a company started two

and go, "Hey, it's a company started two years ago. They have 20 employees.

years ago. They have 20 employees. They're profitable. Like, they're doing

They're profitable. Like, they're doing great." In my mind, like, we're still

great." In my mind, like, we're still very much at the beginning. And so,

very much at the beginning. And so, that's just how I am. I I don't know

that's just how I am. I I don't know that I ever will be comfortable or

that I ever will be comfortable or complacent with with how we've done or

complacent with with how we've done or or feel like I'm successful.

or feel like I'm successful. For better or for worse, it's just who I

For better or for worse, it's just who I am. But no, I mean it is and even like

am. But no, I mean it is and even like having this type of conversation like I

having this type of conversation like I I think that's part of maybe in talking

I think that's part of maybe in talking about me working too much. I think

about me working too much. I think partly what I I should do a better job

partly what I I should do a better job on is is kind of reflecting on on how

on is is kind of reflecting on on how far we've come and and the success we've

far we've come and and the success we've had because I think a lot of times it's

had because I think a lot of times it's just so you know entrenched in the

just so you know entrenched in the day-to-day that like when you take a

day-to-day that like when you take a step back Yeah. It's it's super cool to

step back Yeah. It's it's super cool to like look back on on where where we've

like look back on on where where we've come and so forth. And a lot of times

come and so forth. And a lot of times though just I don't take the time. It's

though just I don't take the time. It's more like having conversations like this

more like having conversations like this or sometimes I'll I'll go visit a

or sometimes I'll I'll go visit a college campus because some sales club

college campus because some sales club or something will ask me to come speak

or something will ask me to come speak and like that's where it's like okay

and like that's where it's like okay it's a good like kind of break and and

it's a good like kind of break and and reflection but as far as like success I

reflection but as far as like success I mean I would say we're successful but

mean I would say we're successful but still still very much striving for for a

still still very much striving for for a lot more.

lot more. Well I I'm glad I was able to provide

Well I I'm glad I was able to provide somewhat of a professional break even

somewhat of a professional break even though it's like a productive

though it's like a productive conversation. Just based on what you

conversation. Just based on what you said, I'm gonna I want to send you a

said, I'm gonna I want to send you a book recommendation since you love

book recommendation since you love 900page books. This is a lot short. This

900page books. This is a lot short. This is a lot shorter.

is a lot shorter. It's called Infinite Games. Like

It's called Infinite Games. Like infinite and finite games. Okay.

infinite and finite games. Okay. I think I think you might actually

I think I think you might actually connect with it quite well because

connect with it quite well because you're you're definitely playing an

you're you're definitely playing an infinite game. It's not finite. There's

infinite game. It's not finite. There's no end because you are so so driven in

no end because you are so so driven in motion.

motion. So I'll email it to you or send it

So I'll email it to you or send it through through LinkedIn. So amazing.

through through LinkedIn. So amazing. That that wraps our conversation today.

That that wraps our conversation today. So I really appreciate your time. I

So I really appreciate your time. I learned your lot. I love your approach

learned your lot. I love your approach to building sales teams and sales

to building sales teams and sales people. I think like that is the the

people. I think like that is the the next wave when you know we get tired of

next wave when you know we get tired of the bots. A AI judgment, creativity,

the bots. A AI judgment, creativity, sorry, human judgment and creativity was

sorry, human judgment and creativity was making a comeback. So I'm glad you're so

making a comeback. So I'm glad you're so invested in that space.

invested in that space. Amazing. Yeah, greatly appreciate you

Amazing. Yeah, greatly appreciate you having me on today and and I I greatly

having me on today and and I I greatly enjoyed the conversation.

enjoyed the conversation. Amazing.

Amazing. Behind the [music] behind the

Behind the [music] behind the one move and the whole thing goes.

one move and the whole thing goes. [music]

[music] Yeah.

Yeah. We build we build it real behind the