Stablecoins, Programmable Money & the Future of Business Finance

Behind the code.

Behind the code. [singing]

Behind the code. [singing] That's where the future grows.

That's where the future grows. Welcome to Behind the Code. Uh my name

Welcome to Behind the Code. Uh my name is Emit and today Phil is joining me

is Emit and today Phil is joining me from Altitude. Phil, super happy to have

from Altitude. Phil, super happy to have you here. Um I'm going to give it over

you here. Um I'm going to give it over you.

you. You're very welcome. I'm looking forward

You're very welcome. I'm looking forward to your introduction. I'm just going to

to your introduction. I'm just going to give you the mic to go ahead and do

give you the mic to go ahead and do that.

that. Sure. Awesome. Uh yes, sorry. Thank you

Sure. Awesome. Uh yes, sorry. Thank you for having me. Um I'm Phil. I'm a chief

for having me. Um I'm Phil. I'm a chief business officer here at Altitude. Um,

business officer here at Altitude. Um, Altitude is a global operating account

Altitude is a global operating account uh helping businesses uh manage their

uh helping businesses uh manage their financial operations and uh run their

financial operations and uh run their you know businesses globally. We really

you know businesses globally. We really are focused on companies that uh kind of

are focused on companies that uh kind of are global from day one which is most

are global from day one which is most companies these days. Um seeing really

companies these days. Um seeing really strong growth and uh yeah look forward

strong growth and uh yeah look forward to today's conversation.

to today's conversation. Awesome. Yeah, we're going to talk about

Awesome. Yeah, we're going to talk about uh a wide range of things, but I'm

uh a wide range of things, but I'm looking forward to our audience

looking forward to our audience understanding more about stable coins

understanding more about stable coins and and how powerful they are in in

and and how powerful they are in in moving their business finances.

moving their business finances. Um so you went from uh Tensor acquired

Um so you went from uh Tensor acquired by Coinbase, joined squads to build

by Coinbase, joined squads to build altitude. Um what did you see that

altitude. Um what did you see that convinced you that business finance was

convinced you that business finance was the next big problem to to work on?

the next big problem to to work on? Yeah, it's a it's a great question. Um,

Yeah, it's a it's a great question. Um, I think when we were uh completing the

I think when we were uh completing the acquisition with Coinbase, I started to

acquisition with Coinbase, I started to think about what I wanted to do next.

think about what I wanted to do next. Um, and I think sitting at the kind of

Um, and I think sitting at the kind of forefront or the frontier as we like to

forefront or the frontier as we like to say these days, um, of where money was

say these days, um, of where money was moving and how money would move and the

moving and how money would move and the evolution of just, um, the dollar and

evolution of just, um, the dollar and how value was held, store moved. felt

how value was held, store moved. felt like we were really starting to get to a

like we were really starting to get to a place where blockchains had become

place where blockchains had become mature enough um widely distributed

mature enough um widely distributed enough where really interesting

enough where really interesting applications could be built on top of it

applications could be built on top of it and so I you know kind of took a look at

and so I you know kind of took a look at what was out there and I hadn't been

what was out there and I hadn't been very familiar with squads because

very familiar with squads because actually one of the roles I had at

actually one of the roles I had at Tensor was overseeing finance and we

Tensor was overseeing finance and we used uh squads um protocol for all of

used uh squads um protocol for all of our onchain uh financial operations

our onchain uh financial operations storing smart contracts and so on and

storing smart contracts and so on and it's the de facto multisig standard on

it's the de facto multisig standard on the on salana and I had noticed they

the on salana and I had noticed they started to work on a product called

started to work on a product called altitude it was in beta at the time and

altitude it was in beta at the time and so had reached out to um the founders to

so had reached out to um the founders to you know explore a little bit more about

you know explore a little bit more about what they were building when I started

what they were building when I started to understand the vision it really

to understand the vision it really clicked for me and it felt as though you

clicked for me and it felt as though you know you kind of even take a step back

know you kind of even take a step back banks came online and built these

banks came online and built these portals that let you do online banking

portals that let you do online banking weird for a little bit then became the

weird for a little bit then became the norm Then what happened was we saw the

norm Then what happened was we saw the next wave of fintech and this is like

next wave of fintech and this is like the Mercuries and the ramps of the world

the Mercuries and the ramps of the world in like the mid to late 2010s where they

in like the mid to late 2010s where they said hey what if we built an

said hey what if we built an unbelievable modern uh experiences on

unbelievable modern uh experiences on top of you know financial infrastructure

top of you know financial infrastructure to let you manage your financial

to let you manage your financial operations and business and they've

operations and business and they've obviously had unbelievable success.

obviously had unbelievable success. They've built fantastic products and

They've built fantastic products and businesses. Um I think the next wave of

businesses. Um I think the next wave of uh of fintech is going to be uh where

uh of fintech is going to be uh where stable coins are at the core uh a lot

stable coins are at the core uh a lot more global from day one. the ability to

more global from day one. the ability to have a modern fintech experience but

have a modern fintech experience but from any country across the world versus

from any country across the world versus you know maybe needing to be in a

you know maybe needing to be in a specific geo it's a lot harder to serve.

specific geo it's a lot harder to serve. I think what stable coins do is uh they

I think what stable coins do is uh they really unlock the ability to hold value

really unlock the ability to hold value and move value no matter where you are.

and move value no matter where you are. Um and really interesting fintech

Um and really interesting fintech experiences can be built on top of this

experiences can be built on top of this primitive um Altitude obviously taking a

primitive um Altitude obviously taking a really aggressive stab at at trying to

really aggressive stab at at trying to build that standard um as we enter kind

build that standard um as we enter kind of the next wave of fintech. So that's a

of the next wave of fintech. So that's a lot of, you know, there's more to it,

lot of, you know, there's more to it, but that was a lot of what was in my

but that was a lot of what was in my mind as to, you know, this being a super

mind as to, you know, this being a super interesting project to start to work on.

interesting project to start to work on. Got it. So, there's something that you

Got it. So, there's something that you see just sitting inside the onchain

see just sitting inside the onchain economy that probably people outside of

economy that probably people outside of it miss. And specific to stable coins,

it miss. And specific to stable coins, what what's like one of those things

what what's like one of those things that when you have someone that is a

that when you have someone that is a novice or or just trying to get into it,

novice or or just trying to get into it, what is the thing that they miss out on

what is the thing that they miss out on just from their like surface level

just from their like surface level knowledge?

knowledge? Yeah, it's really interesting. I think

Yeah, it's really interesting. I think one large realization I've had since um

one large realization I've had since um since being here kind of through the

since being here kind of through the last 8 months or so um is fundamentally

last 8 months or so um is fundamentally stable coins are a form of money and a

stable coins are a form of money and a way to move money. Um they are a new

way to move money. Um they are a new version of how we can hold and store the

version of how we can hold and store the dollar or other currencies but USD is

dollar or other currencies but USD is really dominant. Um and then move that

really dominant. Um and then move that money fast cheap globally. Um the the

money fast cheap globally. Um the the fact that it is a stable coin I think is

fact that it is a stable coin I think is a lot less important than the industry

a lot less important than the industry kind of likes to make it out to be. Um I

kind of likes to make it out to be. Um I think really um this is a new form of

think really um this is a new form of money. It's a new way to move money. And

money. It's a new way to move money. And so the question is like does this save

so the question is like does this save me time? Does it save me money as a

me time? Does it save me money as a business or as a consumer? And if the

business or as a consumer? And if the answer is no,

answer is no, stable coins aren't that interesting. If

stable coins aren't that interesting. If the answer is yes, they may be very

the answer is yes, they may be very interesting. And so I think what a lot

interesting. And so I think what a lot of folks might get wrong or like the

of folks might get wrong or like the onchain economy as you kind of put it.

onchain economy as you kind of put it. Um we're very insular and focused on

Um we're very insular and focused on you know bringing things on chains but

you know bringing things on chains but but really what matters is like why is

but really what matters is like why is this a better experience? Why is this a

this a better experience? Why is this a faster experience? Why is this solving

faster experience? Why is this solving my problems? And if it doesn't it's just

my problems? And if it doesn't it's just cool technology. What's really great

cool technology. What's really great about stable coins is it is cool

about stable coins is it is cool technology and solves really meaningful

technology and solves really meaningful problems. And so I think telling that

problems. And so I think telling that story is really important. So if you

story is really important. So if you actually for example go to Altitude's

actually for example go to Altitude's website, altitude.xyz,

website, altitude.xyz, you'll see us talk about stable coins

you'll see us talk about stable coins here and there. What you'll really see

here and there. What you'll really see us talk about is a global operating

us talk about is a global operating account, the ability to have US dollar

account, the ability to have US dollar and euro accounts, the ability to move

and euro accounts, the ability to move money where you need to do so. The

money where you need to do so. The ability to open an account from 150

ability to open an account from 150 countries and get, you know, named and

countries and get, you know, named and numbered accounts uh for US dollars.

numbered accounts uh for US dollars. That's really powerful, especially if

That's really powerful, especially if you don't have a US entity. um the

you don't have a US entity. um the ability to move money instantly, the

ability to move money instantly, the ability to interface between stable

ability to interface between stable rails and traditional rails because

rails and traditional rails because traditional rails are still dominant and

traditional rails are still dominant and those aren't going away anytime soon.

those aren't going away anytime soon. you need to be able to interface and

you need to be able to interface and integrate with those really deeply and

integrate with those really deeply and so I think directionally this is where

so I think directionally this is where things go which is obvious I guess right

things go which is obvious I guess right it's like what is the value for the end

it's like what is the value for the end user versus like what is the technology

user versus like what is the technology right we don't talk about the technology

right we don't talk about the technology in the iPhone we just talk about the

in the iPhone we just talk about the value that you get when you use one so I

value that you get when you use one so I don't see what that would be different

don't see what that would be different for for you know any industry

for for you know any industry particularly the one that I guess I

particularly the one that I guess I operate

operate and so so like on that topic um the last

and so so like on that topic um the last three years has been a lot change across

three years has been a lot change across like technology regulation and customer

like technology regulation and customer behavior if you can I mean it's probably

behavior if you can I mean it's probably difficult but if you can pick or

difficult but if you can pick or attribute one thing to each category

attribute one thing to each category like what changed in technology that

like what changed in technology that made this progress forward um and same

made this progress forward um and same thing with regulation and customer

thing with regulation and customer behavior

behavior yeah I think on the technology side fast

yeah I think on the technology side fast and cheap blockchains hit scale

and cheap blockchains hit scale particularly on Salana and I think

particularly on Salana and I think multi-IG which is our core first product

multi-IG which is our core first product at squads um kind of came to dominate

at squads um kind of came to dominate that category and we were the de facto

that category and we were the de facto multi standard on Salana. Um I think

multi standard on Salana. Um I think they the team the founders were in the

they the team the founders were in the right place at the right time. Uh built

right place at the right time. Uh built a fantastic product built a lot of trust

a fantastic product built a lot of trust with the community and end up building

with the community and end up building this really dominant product. Altitude

this really dominant product. Altitude is um the second product from squads

is um the second product from squads that really takes a lot of the learnings

that really takes a lot of the learnings from how people were using the multisig

from how people were using the multisig product but really taking the technology

product but really taking the technology which is a smart account on chain that

which is a smart account on chain that is a multisig but wrapping it in a

is a multisig but wrapping it in a modern fintech integrating it with all

modern fintech integrating it with all the modern fintech rails and this is

the modern fintech rails and this is uniquely possible at this moment in time

uniquely possible at this moment in time because blockchains like Salana others

because blockchains like Salana others as well uh are kind of ready for prime

as well uh are kind of ready for prime time they were not five years ago they

time they were not five years ago they were really not arguably even three

were really not arguably even three years ago and so that's a large shift I

years ago and so that's a large shift I as important if not more important is

as important if not more important is the regulatory landscape has shifted. Um

the regulatory landscape has shifted. Um and the regulatory landscape has come

and the regulatory landscape has come out and um passed you know acts and is

out and um passed you know acts and is working on more acts to pass that

working on more acts to pass that provided a structure and a regulatory

provided a structure and a regulatory framework around stable coins and you

framework around stable coins and you know USDC for example circle now a

know USDC for example circle now a publicly traded company is operating

publicly traded company is operating against the standards of the genius act

against the standards of the genius act and the genius act really creates the

and the genius act really creates the required guardrails to make sure that if

required guardrails to make sure that if we're using this new form of money as I

we're using this new form of money as I put it before um it is safe to do so and

put it before um it is safe to do so and it is reserved one to one and attested

it is reserved one to one and attested to in a certain specific way that you we

to in a certain specific way that you we can actually trust so that we can hold

can actually trust so that we can hold our balances and hold serious capital in

our balances and hold serious capital in this new form of money that we call

this new form of money that we call stable coin. And so I think those two

stable coin. And so I think those two shifts are kind of like the why now. Um

shifts are kind of like the why now. Um ultimately though

ultimately though that's a foundation building an

that's a foundation building an experience that is ideally meaningfully

experience that is ideally meaningfully better than the existing experiences

better than the existing experiences that exist today which are quite strong

that exist today which are quite strong with incumbents like ramp and Mercury

with incumbents like ramp and Mercury and so on. Um that's where the real

and so on. Um that's where the real unlock is and um and really nailing that

unlock is and um and really nailing that UX and nailing that product experience

UX and nailing that product experience is is fundamental to actually get

is is fundamental to actually get traction and put this in the hands of a

traction and put this in the hands of a lot of people.

lot of people. Right. Right. So, so when a when a new

Right. Right. So, so when a when a new customer on boards, speaking of UX, it

customer on boards, speaking of UX, it like is it actually a foreign experience

like is it actually a foreign experience for them to integrate their business

for them to integrate their business finances into Altitude or are they very

finances into Altitude or are they very quick to pick it up?

quick to pick it up? They're really quick to pick it up.

They're really quick to pick it up. Okay, that's good. That's really good.

Okay, that's good. That's really good. We we've we we often get from customers,

We we've we we often get from customers, um, wow, this just feels like what I

um, wow, this just feels like what I would expect it to. Like, it's not

would expect it to. Like, it's not you're not coming into some weird tech

you're not coming into some weird tech thing. you're coming into a business

thing. you're coming into a business banking product. While it is not

banking product. While it is not fundamentally a bank, it is a it is a

fundamentally a bank, it is a it is a neoank like experience. Um, it is a

neoank like experience. Um, it is a modern fintech. It is a place to hold

modern fintech. It is a place to hold money, a place to make your payments,

money, a place to make your payments, receive payments, uh, use corporate

receive payments, uh, use corporate cards. It integrates with your ERPs. It

cards. It integrates with your ERPs. It allows them to move money globally.

allows them to move money globally. We're about to ship a lot of really

We're about to ship a lot of really interesting features. I'll let you move

interesting features. I'll let you move money from your US dollar balance

money from your US dollar balance through local rails to a ton of

through local rails to a ton of different countries in their local

different countries in their local currencies on their local rails. It's

currencies on their local rails. It's really just a uh really global oriented

really just a uh really global oriented fintech that

fintech that is really easy to use

is really easy to use and and I I saw that um or read that

and and I I saw that um or read that companies like SpaceX are increasingly

companies like SpaceX are increasingly moving like their treasury on on chain

moving like their treasury on on chain or using stable coins. um what what

or using stable coins. um what what happens like

happens like when you can like your company's

when you can like your company's treasury basically becomes a

treasury basically becomes a programmable object instead of money

programmable object instead of money sitting in a bank. Um what what's

sitting in a bank. Um what what's possible in that case for for companies?

possible in that case for for companies? Yeah, I think we're actively exploring

Yeah, I think we're actively exploring how far can you take this. Um

how far can you take this. Um I think when we think about agentic

I think when we think about agentic finance and the ability to actually give

finance and the ability to actually give agents permission to do things on your

agents permission to do things on your behalf when it comes to money, control

behalf when it comes to money, control is really important. So having a genetic

is really important. So having a genetic finance be built on top of programmable

finance be built on top of programmable money I think will become a requirement

money I think will become a requirement to actually allow your agents to have

to actually allow your agents to have the trust and guard rails and not just

the trust and guard rails and not just guardrails at like you know a database

guardrails at like you know a database that your engineer uh wrote up uh level

that your engineer uh wrote up uh level like a like guardrails at the protocol

like a like guardrails at the protocol level where it fundamentally cannot

level where it fundamentally cannot actually hallucinate and move your money

actually hallucinate and move your money to the wrong place in the wrong way or

to the wrong place in the wrong way or in size that you don't have comfort

in size that you don't have comfort with. And so I think that what we will

with. And so I think that what we will find as Agentic Finance hits an

find as Agentic Finance hits an aggressive inflection point, which is

aggressive inflection point, which is probably happening right now, if not

probably happening right now, if not like about to happen, um a lot of the

like about to happen, um a lot of the most interesting experiences will be

most interesting experiences will be built on top of programmable money

built on top of programmable money because it is inherently like designed

because it is inherently like designed to be programmed

to be programmed where the dollars that are like a

where the dollars that are like a balance on the screen sitting in your

balance on the screen sitting in your traditional bank account, let's say, are

traditional bank account, let's say, are not designed to be programmed,

not designed to be programmed, right? Yeah. Yeah. They're designed to

right? Yeah. Yeah. They're designed to be moved sometimes in very painful ways.

be moved sometimes in very painful ways. Yes.

Yes. Yeah. There's there's a lot of uh I

Yeah. There's there's a lot of uh I think it's been riddled with so many

think it's been riddled with so many middlemen or or like middle exchange

middlemen or or like middle exchange layers taking a piece of every single

layers taking a piece of every single transaction. Um so

transaction. Um so on on that topic like what's something

on on that topic like what's something really small that a company can do on

really small that a company can do on altitude but is surprisingly difficult

altitude but is surprisingly difficult to do in traditional banking?

to do in traditional banking? Yeah, that's a that's a good question. I

Yeah, that's a that's a good question. I think what immediately comes to mind is

think what immediately comes to mind is intercompment.

intercompment. So if you're a business with uh entities

So if you're a business with uh entities in multiple geo geos, let's say you have

in multiple geo geos, let's say you have a US entity and you have an entity in

a US entity and you have an entity in Amsterdam and you have an entity in, you

Amsterdam and you have an entity in, you know, Canada or whatever it might be.

know, Canada or whatever it might be. Typically what that means is yes, you

Typically what that means is yes, you need to actually have, you know, an

need to actually have, you know, an incorporated entity in all these

incorporated entity in all these different geos. Then you need to go get

different geos. Then you need to go get a local bank account. uh and then you

a local bank account. uh and then you need to move money through, you know,

need to move money through, you know, expensive and slow rails when you need

expensive and slow rails when you need to move money through your entities. And

to move money through your entities. And this is typically how it works. What's

this is typically how it works. What's really cool with Altitude is you can

really cool with Altitude is you can open accounts from over 150 countries

open accounts from over 150 countries and because it's stable coin native, uh

and because it's stable coin native, uh you can just move money on stable coin

you can just move money on stable coin rails instantly 24/7 for free. And so

rails instantly 24/7 for free. And so now the intercomp movement, let's say

now the intercomp movement, let's say you need to move money from your US

you need to move money from your US entity to your, you know, European

entity to your, you know, European entity, you can do it at Saturday at 1

entity, you can do it at Saturday at 1 in the morning for free instantly. Where

in the morning for free instantly. Where before you would have had to like

before you would have had to like convert currency, you would have had to

convert currency, you would have had to move it through more traditional slow

move it through more traditional slow rails. There would be an expensive cost

rails. There would be an expensive cost to that. You'd actually have to manage

to that. You'd actually have to manage like the timing of it because you don't

like the timing of it because you don't know when the money is exactly going to

know when the money is exactly going to land. And so you kind of eliminate a

land. And so you kind of eliminate a series of costs and complexities and

series of costs and complexities and time um across intracompment which for

time um across intracompment which for any company that's kind of global from

any company that's kind of global from day one typically has multiple entities

day one typically has multiple entities right even at tensor right we had we had

right even at tensor right we had we had two entities we had a US subsidiary we

two entities we had a US subsidiary we had a Canadian entity and moving money

had a Canadian entity and moving money between the two you could get it done

between the two you could get it done but you have to think about it you have

but you have to think about it you have to plan for it there was complexities

to plan for it there was complexities around it um you saw that problem

around it um you saw that problem fundamentally with a product like

fundamentally with a product like altitude and so we see a lot of our

altitude and so we see a lot of our customers are multi-entity and they get

customers are multi-entity and they get a ton of value from futures like because

a ton of value from futures like because kind of changes the game as to how you

kind of changes the game as to how you were able to operate your business

were able to operate your business day-to-day uh in a more complicated

day-to-day uh in a more complicated structure which many businesses have um

structure which many businesses have um than you are in a traditional world and

than you are in a traditional world and also people don't want to have accounts

also people don't want to have accounts in four different with four different

in four different with four different banks it's operationally intensive uh

banks it's operationally intensive uh it's hard to keep track of so on

it's hard to keep track of so on right okay so so

right okay so so there is like inside altitude you can

there is like inside altitude you can connect with existing rails like a wire

connect with existing rails like a wire swift etc. Um, [clears throat] where do

swift etc. Um, [clears throat] where do you think stable coins uh replace legacy

you think stable coins uh replace legacy rails? And to give some credit to legacy

rails? And to give some credit to legacy rails, where do you think they're still

rails, where do you think they're still pretty good? Like they still are highly

pretty good? Like they still are highly functional.

functional. Yeah. Like listen, legacy rails work,

Yeah. Like listen, legacy rails work, right? They're just simply more

right? They're just simply more expensive.

expensive. Mhm.

Mhm. And they're simply not as fast. Um, they

And they're simply not as fast. Um, they also don't work across borders as well.

also don't work across borders as well. Like a is fantastic in the US, right?

Like a is fantastic in the US, right? Swift is kind of the de facto standard

Swift is kind of the de facto standard to move money globally, but it's really

to move money globally, but it's really expensive and it's not very fast. The

expensive and it's not very fast. The ideal state is that everybody's sending

ideal state is that everybody's sending and receiving stable coins, right? This

and receiving stable coins, right? This is the end state where money movement is

is the end state where money movement is as fast as moving data on the internet.

as fast as moving data on the internet. It's just instant. We don't think about

It's just instant. We don't think about it anymore. Um,

it anymore. Um, that's going to take time to get to.

that's going to take time to get to. Where traditional rails are great are

Where traditional rails are great are when your counterparties only take money

when your counterparties only take money on traditional rails. You have to have

on traditional rails. You have to have it. That is still the majority use case

it. That is still the majority use case because the world has not made the full

because the world has not made the full shift yet. while it's growing rapidly.

shift yet. while it's growing rapidly. More and more folks are using stable

More and more folks are using stable coins um and will continue to grow and

coins um and will continue to grow and potentially even accelerate. Uh we

potentially even accelerate. Uh we believe so very strongly. Um but that

believe so very strongly. Um but that just still takes time for global

just still takes time for global adoption. The world is really big. I

adoption. The world is really big. I think that's something also like as a

think that's something also like as a complete side branch that has been so

complete side branch that has been so fascinating for me is just how big the

fascinating for me is just how big the market is. There are so many businesses

market is. There are so many businesses across the world and when you're

across the world and when you're building a global operating account um

building a global operating account um the potential customers you can go after

the potential customers you can go after is almost overwhelming because there's

is almost overwhelming because there's so many of them. um obviously you want

so many of them. um obviously you want to find the ones where was a really

to find the ones where was a really strong fit and so on and so forth but

strong fit and so on and so forth but any business operating across N plus1

any business operating across N plus1 borders could be a customer right and so

borders could be a customer right and so um I think to answer your original

um I think to answer your original question traditional rails are great

question traditional rails are great when that's where your counterparties

when that's where your counterparties will accept uh or sign from and if you

will accept uh or sign from and if you cannot engage with those I don't think

cannot engage with those I don't think you can build a modern fintech where you

you can build a modern fintech where you bring stable coins kind of to the

bring stable coins kind of to the forefront and start to try to make them

forefront and start to try to make them a really core uh rail or form of money

a really core uh rail or form of money that to use actively because people

that to use actively because people don't accept it. They don't accept it.

don't accept it. They don't accept it. And then if you hit those walls, you

And then if you hit those walls, you need to use other platforms. If you use

need to use other platforms. If you use other platforms, we're not going to win

other platforms, we're not going to win your business.

your business. Right. Yeah. That I mean, yeah, that's

Right. Yeah. That I mean, yeah, that's seems like a very that's a hard

seems like a very that's a hard constraint to overcome if that's like

constraint to overcome if that's like where a business is situated themselves.

where a business is situated themselves. Yeah. I I think like the right answer, I

Yeah. I I think like the right answer, I mean, our answer is well, if you're a

mean, our answer is well, if you're a modern fintech, you support all types of

modern fintech, you support all types of payment rails. Stable coins are just a

payment rails. Stable coins are just a payment rail, right? Yes. form of money

payment rail, right? Yes. form of money also a payment rail. That means you also

also a payment rail. That means you also need to support switch and AC and wire

need to support switch and AC and wire and uh SEPA in Europe. And if you're

and uh SEPA in Europe. And if you're going to go deep into any specific

going to go deep into any specific countries, you need to support those

countries, you need to support those payment rails as well.

payment rails as well. Right. So, so if money can move globally

Right. So, so if money can move globally 24/7 uh very fast programmatically,

24/7 uh very fast programmatically, what's one of the fundamental changes

what's one of the fundamental changes you think a company goes through on how

you think a company goes through on how it operates?

it operates? Hm.

Hm. Well, they save a lot of time. Um, that

Well, they save a lot of time. Um, that is for sure. I think that's probably

is for sure. I think that's probably what's fundamental. I think, you know,

what's fundamental. I think, you know, to put my own hat on, when I was

to put my own hat on, when I was managing finance at Tensor, you know, it

managing finance at Tensor, you know, it was many hours a week to reconcile, to

was many hours a week to reconcile, to make the payments, to make sure I had

make the payments, to make sure I had money in the right accounts that I

money in the right accounts that I needed that money to be in to make the

needed that money to be in to make the payments. You know, if I needed to make

payments. You know, if I needed to make a payment to a vendor in Britain, which

a payment to a vendor in Britain, which we did, I needed pounds.

we did, I needed pounds. Like, yeah,

Like, yeah, my account didn't support pounds. I

my account didn't support pounds. I needed a way to get the money that man I

needed a way to get the money that man I need to move money over to a specific

need to move money over to a specific tool I used for that, right? Um, for our

tool I used for that, right? Um, for our US entity, we had a Mercury account. For

US entity, we had a Mercury account. For our Canadian entities, we had some

our Canadian entities, we had some Canadian traditional banks plus a local

Canadian traditional banks plus a local Canadian kind of fintech. So, you

Canadian kind of fintech. So, you suddenly start to have like a stack of

suddenly start to have like a stack of five, six, seven, eight tools, right?

five, six, seven, eight tools, right? Um, we collapse that stack. And so, I

Um, we collapse that stack. And so, I think simplification and unification of

think simplification and unification of tools is a massive value proposition

tools is a massive value proposition because it's a lot of work. It's a lot

because it's a lot of work. It's a lot of time. Um I think also when money can

of time. Um I think also when money can move instantly and globally um and it's

move instantly and globally um and it's easier to the types of customers you can

easier to the types of customers you can work with the types of vendors you can

work with the types of vendors you can engage you expand the the total size of

engage you expand the the total size of whom you can work with right and partner

whom you can work with right and partner with. Um if you can't move money between

with. Um if you can't move money between them and you you can't really do

them and you you can't really do business together because money is the

business together because money is the atomic unit of business. And so

atomic unit of business. And so when you when you start to be able to

when you when you start to be able to say, well, actually, I can make a

say, well, actually, I can make a payment to somebody in, you know,

payment to somebody in, you know, Singapore or someone in Thailand or to

Singapore or someone in Thailand or to someone in Australia just as easily as I

someone in Australia just as easily as I can to the vendor over in California or

can to the vendor over in California or in Toronto. It changes the nature of

in Toronto. It changes the nature of what's possible for your business. And

what's possible for your business. And so I think those are the interesting

so I think those are the interesting second order effects that happen as this

second order effects that happen as this type of technology, you know,

type of technology, you know, prolificates.

prolificates. And and speaking of like so like one

And and speaking of like so like one thing I was thinking about as you were

thing I was thinking about as you were saying that and also before we jumped on

saying that and also before we jumped on the call today is that uh companies that

the call today is that uh companies that operate remote teams right like people

operate remote teams right like people get paid in different ways globally and

get paid in different ways globally and moving money I think the speed of it is

moving money I think the speed of it is really good but I think the second part

really good but I think the second part I was thinking about is that the idea of

I was thinking about is that the idea of getting paid on a set uh schedule like

getting paid on a set uh schedule like like once a month or once every two

like once a month or once every two weeks it is definitely archaic like in

weeks it is definitely archaic like in my opin I [laughter] think I think a lot

my opin I [laughter] think I think a lot of people agree with that And um this is

of people agree with that And um this is a use case where I think companies can

a use case where I think companies can really take advantage of their

really take advantage of their operations if they're fully remote and

operations if they're fully remote and and globally remote taking advantage of

and globally remote taking advantage of talent pools like have you seen that

talent pools like have you seen that being like actually in use by some of

being like actually in use by some of your clients today?

your clients today? You mean like streaming money in real

You mean like streaming money in real time to people almost

time to people almost as as needed? Yeah. Yeah. Like or

as as needed? Yeah. Yeah. Like or whatever schedule they come up with with

whatever schedule they come up with with their remote staff if they're using it.

their remote staff if they're using it. Honestly, the truth is everybody's got a

Honestly, the truth is everybody's got a remote team now and they're operating

remote team now and they're operating on, you know, bi-weekly bandits.

on, you know, bi-weekly bandits. Um,

Um, right. Right.

right. Right. That that maybe changes. Um, sometimes

That that maybe changes. Um, sometimes like an idea like that is one of those

like an idea like that is one of those things where it's like it's a cool idea.

things where it's like it's a cool idea. Does it actually fundamentally

Does it actually fundamentally um, you know, change the way I do things

um, you know, change the way I do things or does it actually like help me as a

or does it actually like help me as a business operator in a meaningful way?

business operator in a meaningful way? It it might actually. It might because

It it might actually. It might because it might actually change, you know, the

it might actually change, you know, the relationships you can have with

relationships you can have with potential employees and so on. But I

potential employees and so on. But I still think at this juncture, I'm not

still think at this juncture, I'm not seeing that type of behavior come to

seeing that type of behavior come to life yet. Um, but it' be cool. We could

life yet. Um, but it' be cool. We could enable it like quite easily to be

enable it like quite easily to be honest.

honest. Yeah. The the example I'm thinking of is

Yeah. The the example I'm thinking of is it's not necessarily in the knowledge

it's not necessarily in the knowledge economy. Um, but in the fast food

economy. Um, but in the fast food industry, they implemented this where

industry, they implemented this where people get could get get paid every day.

people get could get get paid every day. Oh, that's Yeah. So that's the example

Oh, that's Yeah. So that's the example that came to my mind. It might just be

that came to my mind. It might just be the nature of like our customers, right?

the nature of like our customers, right? Right.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah. We're like very tech oriented

We're like very tech oriented businesses, right? Yes. Yes.

businesses, right? Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. But I mean, as

Yeah. That makes sense. But I mean, as you know, like a lot of tech founders

you know, like a lot of tech founders leave tech and then start like a taco

leave tech and then start like a taco stand. So, you never [laughter] know.

stand. So, you never [laughter] know. You never know where it a long time ago

You never know where it a long time ago in Costa Rica did exactly that,

in Costa Rica did exactly that, actually.

actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm not

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. Um so ju

surprised. I'm not surprised. Um so ju just like moving into another topic is

just like moving into another topic is that

that software has always been programmable um

software has always been programmable um but money hasn't. Um what do you think

but money hasn't. Um what do you think changes with I guess people's

changes with I guess people's relationship with money when it itself

relationship with money when it itself is now programmable?

That's an interesting question. Could

you share more about what you exactly

you share more about what you exactly mean?

mean? So I think as someone who is in the

So I think as someone who is in the traditional like like moving money in a

traditional like like moving money in a traditional system the idea that I can

traditional system the idea that I can program it to take actions. So for

program it to take actions. So for example if an agent can be programmed to

example if an agent can be programmed to access um like my stable coins then take

access um like my stable coins then take actions in the real world that feels

actions in the real world that feels very foreign today that I can make that

very foreign today that I can make that autonomous. So um I think that's where

autonomous. So um I think that's where my origin of my question comes from is

my origin of my question comes from is that the relationship then is

that the relationship then is fundamentally different like today like

fundamentally different like today like my relationship is in a very small

my relationship is in a very small window but this feels like it's a

window but this feels like it's a expansive window that like I myself am

expansive window that like I myself am not even prepared to contemplate what I

not even prepared to contemplate what I could do.

could do. Yeah. I think I think what is required

Yeah. I think I think what is required is really strong guard rails that you

is really strong guard rails that you understand and trust. Um,

understand and trust. Um, and I think for aentic finance to really

and I think for aentic finance to really take hold and for you to actually allow

take hold and for you to actually allow agents to operate on your behalf with

agents to operate on your behalf with your money, you need to deeply

your money, you need to deeply understand how the guardrails are stood

understand how the guardrails are stood up and trust that the guardrails cannot

up and trust that the guardrails cannot fail. I think the moment a guardrail

fail. I think the moment a guardrail could fail um you will no longer trust

could fail um you will no longer trust an agent to use money uh on your behalf.

an agent to use money uh on your behalf. And so I think you know for us we are

And so I think you know for us we are you know the core of Altitude is a

you know the core of Altitude is a programmable smart account built on top

programmable smart account built on top of programmable money. And so we are

of programmable money. And so we are uniquely positioned to design systems

uniquely positioned to design systems and guardrail systems I guess I should

and guardrail systems I guess I should say that really give you the confidence

say that really give you the confidence on the types of permissions that you are

on the types of permissions that you are granting to the agents that you're going

granting to the agents that you're going to allow to operate on your behalf. Um

to allow to operate on your behalf. Um and actually coding that in at the

and actually coding that in at the programmatic and protocol level. And so

programmatic and protocol level. And so this is what I think is required for

this is what I think is required for folks to trust it. I think once they

folks to trust it. I think once they trust it, then they'll use it like

trust it, then they'll use it like mostly and they will stop actually doing

mostly and they will stop actually doing lots on themselves. I think that's the

lots on themselves. I think that's the end state. I think once you hit the

end state. I think once you hit the tipping point of trust and it

tipping point of trust and it consistently works and you understand

consistently works and you understand the system in place that is actually

the system in place that is actually allowing agents to use money on your

allowing agents to use money on your behalf,

behalf, you'll it'll become one of these things

you'll it'll become one of these things where,

where, you know, for a long time people are

you know, for a long time people are afraid to put credit cards on the

afraid to put credit cards on the internet. You know, I'm sure you call

internet. You know, I'm sure you call this. I remember like I remember when I

this. I remember like I remember when I started buying things online like my

started buying things online like my grandfather would be like you know you

grandfather would be like you know you can't put your credit card on the

can't put your credit card on the internet it's too risky.

internet it's too risky. Yeah.

Yeah. It's funny to laugh at now but this is

It's funny to laugh at now but this is the case for like a long time and

the case for like a long time and eventually we got to a point of trust

eventually we got to a point of trust because companies like Stripe emerged

because companies like Stripe emerged and so on where there was like really

and so on where there was like really trusted infrastructure on how payments

trusted infrastructure on how payments were received. We knew when we're doing

were received. We knew when we're doing a checkout on shop or doing a checkout

a checkout on shop or doing a checkout on Stripe or whatever it might be we're

on Stripe or whatever it might be we're going to be okay. Um

going to be okay. Um I think similarly I mean it's like more

I think similarly I mean it's like more analogous but similarly we're going to

analogous but similarly we're going to need to start to understand and trust

need to start to understand and trust okay you know I can give the agent

okay you know I can give the agent access but the access is boxed uh to

access but the access is boxed uh to maybe who can it can pay uh to how much

maybe who can it can pay uh to how much it can move to the cadence it can move

it can move to the cadence it can move money on what happens when the agent is

money on what happens when the agent is confused and how it gets secondary

confused and how it gets secondary approvals um and so on and so forth and

approvals um and so on and so forth and I think all that's really really really

I think all that's really really really required I actually funnily enough saw

required I actually funnily enough saw something on Twitter or maybe as

something on Twitter or maybe as recently as yesterday um where someone

recently as yesterday um where someone was using that new product that's

was using that new product that's blowing up Instinct um and they had

blowing up Instinct um and they had given it access I think to their credit

given it access I think to their credit card or similar um or they asked it to

card or similar um or they asked it to can oh that's what it was they asked the

can oh that's what it was they asked the agent to see if it could move the flight

agent to see if it could move the flight it replies back I've canceled the flight

it replies back I've canceled the flight and uh instead of getting your refund we

and uh instead of getting your refund we only got you like 10% of how much you

only got you like 10% of how much you paid and it was like a one-way door they

paid and it was like a one-way door they walked through you can't allow them that

walked through you can't allow them that person's not has lost trust to some

person's not has lost trust to some extent with product. I saw it and I was

extent with product. I saw it and I was like, "Okay, we're just like not at

like, "Okay, we're just like not at prime time yet." And whatever guard

prime time yet." And whatever guard rails are in place with a product like

rails are in place with a product like that right now are maybe not as robust

that right now are maybe not as robust as they need to be to give the agent

as they need to be to give the agent that degree of autonomy. And so, you

that degree of autonomy. And so, you know, more things will continue

know, more things will continue happening like this. And I think that

happening like this. And I think that the products that crack security and

the products that crack security and safety when it comes to the movement of

safety when it comes to the movement of money are the ones that are going to win

money are the ones that are going to win because I think it's a fundamental

because I think it's a fundamental requirement.

requirement. So in that world where like permissions

So in that world where like permissions and transaction policies they're code

and transaction policies they're code enforced, do you have like do you have a

enforced, do you have like do you have a take on um an autonomous boundary that

take on um an autonomous boundary that should exist? Like so in the example you

should exist? Like so in the example you just gave uh clearly like that was an

just gave uh clearly like that was an unintended consequence like getting 10%

unintended consequence like getting 10% back full refund. Um do you have like a

back full refund. Um do you have like a take on where that boundary might be?

take on where that boundary might be? I think the boundary needs to be

I think the boundary needs to be personal and I think you need to design

personal and I think you need to design the tools in a way that allows the end

the tools in a way that allows the end user to set what their boundaries are.

user to set what their boundaries are. Our boundary and my boundary may be

Our boundary and my boundary may be completely different and that's fine. It

completely different and that's fine. It might be a byproduct of our comfort

might be a byproduct of our comfort level, our financial position, what the

level, our financial position, what the action is and whether we determine it to

action is and whether we determine it to be highly sensitive or not and so on and

be highly sensitive or not and so on and so forth. And so yeah, I think the

so forth. And so yeah, I think the systems must be flexible and they must

systems must be flexible and they must give you the tools to really understand

give you the tools to really understand the guard rails of your designing in a

the guard rails of your designing in a way that makes sense for you and your

way that makes sense for you and your business or if it's personal in your

business or if it's personal in your personal life. Um, I don't think this is

personal life. Um, I don't think this is a one-izefit all thing.

a one-izefit all thing. So do do you see as like the the

So do do you see as like the the software can receive rules that a user

software can receive rules that a user puts forth and then just code them in in

puts forth and then just code them in in real time? Like do you see a world where

real time? Like do you see a world where that that happens?

that that happens? What do you mean?

What do you mean? So I like you said like I have a

So I like you said like I have a different tolerance of what my in the

different tolerance of what my in the future I have a different tolerance what

future I have a different tolerance what my AI agent can and cannot do. Say the

my AI agent can and cannot do. Say the system the system does not have that

system the system does not have that permission yet and ability to enforce it

permission yet and ability to enforce it and I say this is what I'd like it to

and I say this is what I'd like it to do. Do you see a future where your your

do. Do you see a future where your your like your product can just take that on

like your product can just take that on in real time and execute that permission

in real time and execute that permission and make it like available to the agent

and make it like available to the agent moving forward?

moving forward? I'm not sure. I think we need to explore

I'm not sure. I think we need to explore that in like a really detailed fashion.

that in like a really detailed fashion. My instinctive answer is for any net new

My instinctive answer is for any net new permission to be given like the human

permission to be given like the human must have the final say and actually

must have the final say and actually grant that permission. Um I think if the

grant that permission. Um I think if the agent at least with where we're at now,

agent at least with where we're at now, it's hard to imagine where this all

it's hard to imagine where this all goes, right? Maybe we get to a place

goes, right? Maybe we get to a place where actually it is rational to let the

where actually it is rational to let the agent decide

agent decide to expand its permission set. I would

to expand its permission set. I would say in the way the technology would be

say in the way the technology would be designed with like a multi-stig product

designed with like a multi-stig product like Altitude, um it wouldn't be

like Altitude, um it wouldn't be possible, right? You'd actually have to

possible, right? You'd actually have to design those guard rails as the person.

design those guard rails as the person. Yeah. No. Well, I mean I think that that

Yeah. No. Well, I mean I think that that because like the example comes to mind

because like the example comes to mind where um I'm sure you know like in cloud

where um I'm sure you know like in cloud code or codeex you can just do the

code or codeex you can just do the approved for me and it goes on its own

approved for me and it goes on its own adventure. um naturally when you're

adventure. um naturally when you're putting like your company's finance or

putting like your company's finance or your personal finance in that

your personal finance in that environment I think the consequence

environment I think the consequence change significantly. So

change significantly. So um that makes a lot of sense.

um that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I think like it again it's

Yeah. And I think like it again it's it's it's a policies and permissions

it's it's a policies and permissions type of problem

type of problem um on where you're comfortable where

um on where you're comfortable where you're not and what you want to allow

you're not and what you want to allow the agent to do and what you want it to

the agent to do and what you want it to not do. Right? Now, you might be

not do. Right? Now, you might be comfortable letting the agent kind of go

comfortable letting the agent kind of go more wild up to $1,000, but you

more wild up to $1,000, but you definitely might not be comfortable

definitely might not be comfortable letting the agent do so up to a million

letting the agent do so up to a million dollars, right? So, that's a policy that

dollars, right? So, that's a policy that you need to define, right? Because maybe

you need to define, right? Because maybe the risk profile of, you know, the wrong

the risk profile of, you know, the wrong action being taken at a small threshold

action being taken at a small threshold of dollars is worth

of dollars is worth the overall automation that that agent

the overall automation that that agent might run for you, right? So yeah, but

might run for you, right? So yeah, but comfort level is personal oriented to

comfort level is personal oriented to the business, the individual and the

the business, the individual and the system must be one that you can define

system must be one that you can define policies in the way that makes sense for

policies in the way that makes sense for you. And we're actually like very

you. And we're actually like very actively working on policies right now

actively working on policies right now to be able to allow for you know the use

to be able to allow for you know the use of agents to you know do your bill pay

of agents to you know do your bill pay to manage invoicing to run your payroll.

to manage invoicing to run your payroll. Because a lot of these things are very

Because a lot of these things are very welldefined ruleoriented things that you

welldefined ruleoriented things that you can say okay you know here's the set of

can say okay you know here's the set of policies that I can implement that allow

policies that I can implement that allow an agent to do what really is just

an agent to do what really is just monotonous work that has you know a very

monotonous work that has you know a very clear outcome on what is right and what

clear outcome on what is right and what is wrong and that's good type of stuff

is wrong and that's good type of stuff for agents to do

for agents to do right yeah like a a well- definfined

right yeah like a a well- definfined rule set with clear boundaries so do you

rule set with clear boundaries so do you think that um this

think that um this deterministic right

deterministic right right Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

right Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Do do you think it this reduces the size

Do do you think it this reduces the size of finance teams in the future or does

of finance teams in the future or does it simply let like many other

it simply let like many other automations in the economy change where

automations in the economy change where finance people spend their time?

finance people spend their time? Yeah, I think it definitely changes

Yeah, I think it definitely changes where finance people can spend their

where finance people can spend their time. I think I don't think you can meet

time. I think I don't think you can meet a finance person who will tell you they

a finance person who will tell you they love doing the monotonous work. I think

love doing the monotonous work. I think they'll mostly tell you they love doing

they'll mostly tell you they love doing the strategic work. They love thinking

the strategic work. They love thinking about how to plan for the business,

about how to plan for the business, understanding the business, how, you

understanding the business, how, you know, how to do FPNA is more maybe sexy

know, how to do FPNA is more maybe sexy than doing, you know, controller type

than doing, you know, controller type work and accounting work, but it's all

work and accounting work, but it's all important, right? And so I think it

important, right? And so I think it opens up um more space to shift what the

opens up um more space to shift what the finance professional's day-to-day looks

finance professional's day-to-day looks like, for sure.

like, for sure. Does it reduce the size of the finance

Does it reduce the size of the finance team? Um it reduces administrative work

team? Um it reduces administrative work that the finance team needs to do. Now,

that the finance team needs to do. Now, does that reduce the amount of headcount

does that reduce the amount of headcount you need or does that allow you to

you need or does that allow you to deploy actually more headcount on more

deploy actually more headcount on more important bit things for the business? I

important bit things for the business? I mean, like to be determined, I think.

mean, like to be determined, I think. I'm not I'm not totally sure.

I'm not I'm not totally sure. Yeah, I think that that's a question for

Yeah, I think that that's a question for the broader economy in its entirety

the broader economy in its entirety because yeah, a lot of people are

because yeah, a lot of people are pushing these automations inside their

pushing these automations inside their workforce and then

workforce and then the ideal state is now someone unlocks

the ideal state is now someone unlocks this new uh action that brings a lot of

this new uh action that brings a lot of benefit to the business.

benefit to the business. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. My experience with this has been

Yeah. My experience with this has been um because obviously I'm

um because obviously I'm AI pill as we that's what we say on on

AI pill as we that's what we say on on the internet. Um

the internet. Um I am simply able to do like a way higher

I am simply able to do like a way higher volume of work

volume of work way faster.

way faster. Um it's kind of crazy how much you can

Um it's kind of crazy how much you can do in one day that might have taken me

do in one day that might have taken me literally one or two weeks before.

literally one or two weeks before. Um it's it's unbelievable. Uh so does

Um it's it's unbelievable. Uh so does that has that reduced the need for my

that has that reduced the need for my day-to-day? No, it's just shifted a how

day-to-day? No, it's just shifted a how much output I can deliver, the quality

much output I can deliver, the quality of output that I can deliver, the speed

of output that I can deliver, the speed I can deliver it. Um, and as such, I can

I can deliver it. Um, and as such, I can accomplish more, move the business

accomplish more, move the business forward faster. It's why I think part of

forward faster. It's why I think part of it is why everything feels like it's

it is why everything feels like it's moving so fast because what used to take

moving so fast because what used to take me two weeks literally in like December.

me two weeks literally in like December. Um, now will take me 30 minutes,

Um, now will take me 30 minutes, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a I think

right? Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a I think it's an error where you can cover more

it's an error where you can cover more surface area with depth

surface area with depth and that feels very unusual.

and that feels very unusual. That is a good way to put it. It is

That is a good way to put it. It is unusual. I'm still at this point where I

unusual. I'm still at this point where I will, you know, get a lot done in a day

will, you know, get a lot done in a day and be like, I can't believe how much

and be like, I can't believe how much was just accomplished and how much time

was just accomplished and how much time this would have taken me 6 to 12 months

this would have taken me 6 to 12 months ago. Even though like I know and I'm

ago. Even though like I know and I'm kind of used to it now because we see

kind of used to it now because we see things very fast, I still sometimes I'm

things very fast, I still sometimes I'm like, "Wow, this is crazy.

like, "Wow, this is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm I'm with you. I'm

Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm I'm with you. I'm with you. Especially because you like uh

with you. Especially because you like uh you didn't come into the workforce as an

you didn't come into the workforce as an AI native contributor like neither did

AI native contributor like neither did I. So like you said, you get accustomed

I. So like you said, you get accustomed to it quickly. Um but it does feel like

to it quickly. Um but it does feel like science fiction most days. Uh so so

science fiction most days. Uh so so yeah, it takes time. Um just just

yeah, it takes time. Um just just thinking about like what working and

thinking about like what working and building Altitude has taught you. Um,

building Altitude has taught you. Um, what's something customers taught you

what's something customers taught you about stable coins or business finance

about stable coins or business finance that uh it just surprised you or or

that uh it just surprised you or or contradicted something you believed when

contradicted something you believed when you first started building this out?

you first started building this out? Yeah, I kind of alluded to it before, so

Yeah, I kind of alluded to it before, so I apologize if it's repetitive, but I

I apologize if it's repetitive, but I think when I came in, I was convinced

think when I came in, I was convinced the right way to position the product

the right way to position the product was um run your business on stable

was um run your business on stable coins. I think where I quickly got to

coins. I think where I quickly got to was stable coins are a form of money and

was stable coins are a form of money and a way to move money. They're not the

a way to move money. They're not the core value proposition. the core value

core value proposition. the core value proposition is a really flexible global

proposition is a really flexible global operating account that allows you to run

operating account that allows you to run your financial operations faster and

your financial operations faster and cheaper. And I guess that has surprised

cheaper. And I guess that has surprised me. Um, in hindsight, it's quite obvious

me. Um, in hindsight, it's quite obvious and I almost like, you know, should have

and I almost like, you know, should have realized that a couple months faster.

realized that a couple months faster. Um, but I think ultimately

Um, but I think ultimately people are busy, they have problems,

people are busy, they have problems, they want to solve them the fastest and

they want to solve them the fastest and best and cheapest way. And if you can do

best and cheapest way. And if you can do that really elegantly, then they're

that really elegantly, then they're going to choose your product. um how you

going to choose your product. um how you do it. You know, it's like third order

do it. You know, it's like third order messaging that does matter, but it's not

messaging that does matter, but it's not your top level messaging.

your top level messaging. And I think that I guess has been a a

And I think that I guess has been a a touch of a surprise. Um cuz I think I

touch of a surprise. Um cuz I think I came into it just with a bit of a

came into it just with a bit of a different view, which has very quickly

different view, which has very quickly evolved. H and and you're you're like uh

evolved. H and and you're you're like uh your company and and you personally are

your company and and you personally are in the business of building trust with

in the business of building trust with with companies that are now using an

with companies that are now using an unfamiliar infrastructure. Um being in

unfamiliar infrastructure. Um being in that business like you said like you

that business like you said like you pivoted on positioning. Um what are the

pivoted on positioning. Um what are the things that you picked up and you can

things that you picked up and you can speak broadly about this because I think

speak broadly about this because I think many companies that are building AI

many companies that are building AI systems are in a similar place where

systems are in a similar place where they're trying to transfer trust in the

they're trying to transfer trust in the product. like what's one of the key

product. like what's one of the key unlocks that you've seen in that area?

unlocks that you've seen in that area? Yeah, listen, I think like the when

Yeah, listen, I think like the when you're dealing in the business of money,

you're dealing in the business of money, trust is there's nothing more important

trust is there's nothing more important and if you lose it, it's just it's

and if you lose it, it's just it's pretty much over in my opinion. It's

pretty much over in my opinion. It's very hard to recover from. Um I think

very hard to recover from. Um I think what's one reason I actually joined the

what's one reason I actually joined the company was because that is like the

company was because that is like the most important value and also manifested

most important value and also manifested value in form of product at at SWAT. I

value in form of product at at SWAT. I don't think you can build a product like

don't think you can build a product like this otherwise. And so one thing that I

this otherwise. And so one thing that I was extremely impressed by and familiar

was extremely impressed by and familiar with as a user prior to coming here was

with as a user prior to coming here was what they had accomplished with the

what they had accomplished with the multisig product and the degree of trust

multisig product and the degree of trust and the approach and trust building that

and the approach and trust building that they took which was which means you know

they took which was which means you know uh formally verified many times over the

uh formally verified many times over the uh protocol publishing it publicly like

uh protocol publishing it publicly like you can go look at the formal

you can go look at the formal verification by [clears throat] a series

verification by [clears throat] a series of different auditors on GitHub and it's

of different auditors on GitHub and it's been live since you know it was done and

been live since you know it was done and these products were not pushed out until

these products were not pushed out until the security and safety of them was like

the security and safety of them was like deeply deeply deeply audited um by

deeply deeply deeply audited um by multiple audit firms that are the best

multiple audit firms that are the best in class in the most aggressive form of

in class in the most aggressive form of auditing that we call formal

auditing that we call formal verification and then publish publicly

verification and then publish publicly for the world to see. Um which is I

for the world to see. Um which is I think why which this is extremely

think why which this is extremely expensive to do right um this is why one

expensive to do right um this is why one of the reasons why uh squas became the

of the reasons why uh squas became the deacto multi salana and so knowing that

deacto multi salana and so knowing that altitude was built on top of the exact

altitude was built on top of the exact same protocol built a lot of confidence

same protocol built a lot of confidence for me that you could trust this because

for me that you could trust this because if you're a business and you're putting

if you're a business and you're putting $10 million in to Altitude and having

$10 million in to Altitude and having that and maybe that's most of your

that and maybe that's most of your company's treasury and then you're using

company's treasury and then you're using it to run all your payments you're using

it to run all your payments you're using it for cards uh you you

it for cards uh you you tr you have to trust it. You can't use

tr you have to trust it. You can't use it. You will not use it otherwise. And

it. You will not use it otherwise. And so, um, yeah, that actually was a large

so, um, yeah, that actually was a large reason why I felt confident working with

reason why I felt confident working with this team in a full-time capacity

this team in a full-time capacity because of my understanding of how

because of my understanding of how serious they took trust previously. And

serious they took trust previously. And so, yeah, I think a lot of companies um,

so, yeah, I think a lot of companies um, I don't want to say in like fintech, I

I don't want to say in like fintech, I just mean like broadly, let's say like

just mean like broadly, let's say like in the AI space. Yeah. Yeah. Trust is a

in the AI space. Yeah. Yeah. Trust is a checkbox, but trust um in security and

checkbox, but trust um in security and safety needs to be a product. The most

safety needs to be a product. The most important product needs to be a value

important product needs to be a value inside your company and actually the

inside your company and actually the things you do internally dayto-day with

things you do internally dayto-day with the way you bring a new product forward

the way you bring a new product forward etc. has to have that at the core.

etc. has to have that at the core. Otherwise, um you know there's a saying,

Otherwise, um you know there's a saying, right? It's like trust is really hard to

right? It's like trust is really hard to build and really easy to lose. There's

build and really easy to lose. There's probably a fancier one, but um the more

probably a fancier one, but um the more high stakes your product is, the more

high stakes your product is, the more important it is. And I think a lot of

important it is. And I think a lot of these AI tools are actually a bit more

these AI tools are actually a bit more high stakes that people give them credit

high stakes that people give them credit for, right? Like even Grothbot, right? I

for, right? Like even Grothbot, right? I started using Grothbot. Um

started using Grothbot. Um I'm careful with Grothbot because I

I'm careful with Grothbot because I don't understand how it won't do

don't understand how it won't do something I don't want it to do. And I

something I don't want it to do. And I see on Twitter every day, it's going off

see on Twitter every day, it's going off and doing this thing that you didn't

and doing this thing that you didn't realize you gave the permission to. And

realize you gave the permission to. And so I think

so I think yeah, we need a lot more robustness

yeah, we need a lot more robustness around this for these things to find

around this for these things to find actual scale. Um

actual scale. Um yeah, I I think there's a lesson also in

yeah, I I think there's a lesson also in what you just said where you have to be

what you just said where you have to be able to put your product in the public

able to put your product in the public arena to be scrutinized and then publish

arena to be scrutinized and then publish the results. Like don't blackbox

the results. Like don't blackbox everything.

everything. Yes. Yeah. I think we're going to get to

Yes. Yeah. I think we're going to get to a place where those who don't won't

a place where those who don't won't succeed because we're seeing like like

succeed because we're seeing like like you know look at the stocks of cyber

you know look at the stocks of cyber security companies. I think they're like

security companies. I think they're like doing all right now because every new

doing all right now because every new model that comes out is finding

model that comes out is finding vulnerabilities in code that no one knew

vulnerabilities in code that no one knew existed.

existed. And so

And so as that continues to happen, which I

as that continues to happen, which I think is inevitable, um, yeah, putting

think is inevitable, um, yeah, putting your public work in the public arena

your public work in the public arena to be scrutinized with the intention of

to be scrutinized with the intention of ensuring safety and security and trust,

ensuring safety and security and trust, yeah, it will become the deacto

yeah, it will become the deacto standard. I argue it already is. For any

standard. I argue it already is. For any serious operator, you already must take

serious operator, you already must take this approach. And if you're not, you're

this approach. And if you're not, you're just not a serious person.

just not a serious person. Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's a really

Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's a really good quote. Yeah, that's a really good

good quote. Yeah, that's a really good quote. Major building. Yeah. Just uh so

quote. Major building. Yeah. Just uh so just to we're going to wrap up soon, but

just to we're going to wrap up soon, but to move into the rapid fire portion, I'm

to move into the rapid fire portion, I'm just going to hit you with three

just going to hit you with three questions. Um Okay.

questions. Um Okay. First one, um which business leader,

First one, um which business leader, past or present, do you find yourself

past or present, do you find yourself studying closely and trying to emulate?

studying closely and trying to emulate? Oh, man. Uh,

Oh, man. Uh, I mean, recently I've been on a Travis

I mean, recently I've been on a Travis uh a Travis from Uber uh whole Yeah. Um,

uh a Travis from Uber uh whole Yeah. Um, he's been doing his media his media runs

he's been doing his media his media runs recently, but I think

recently, but I think I love how he I love the fierceness and

I love how he I love the fierceness and intensity of Travis. I aspired to Yeah.

intensity of Travis. I aspired to Yeah. 10% to that level because it is

10% to that level because it is unbelievable. Um, there's many others,

unbelievable. Um, there's many others, but um I also spent a lot of time

but um I also spent a lot of time studying uh Rockefeller over the last

studying uh Rockefeller over the last couple years. Um I I kind of got on to

couple years. Um I I kind of got on to that through the founders podcast. He

that through the founders podcast. He has a lot of really good deep dives on a

has a lot of really good deep dives on a lot of the different bios, especially

lot of the different bios, especially like niche bios that are not widely

like niche bios that are not widely available that he found.

available that he found. Yeah.

Yeah. Um just the way he built in a completely

Um just the way he built in a completely new industry on the frontier and like

new industry on the frontier and like the aggressive tactics to win. Uh

the aggressive tactics to win. Uh there's a lot to learn from us.

there's a lot to learn from us. Yeah. Yeah. There's a there's quite a

Yeah. Yeah. There's a there's quite a few uh books on that that not just him

few uh books on that that not just him but that era and the tactics required to

but that era and the tactics required to survive. Yeah. Yeah. There's uh and that

survive. Yeah. Yeah. There's uh and that podcast is awesome. Shout out to the

podcast is awesome. Shout out to the founders podcast. Really good.

founders podcast. Really good. So good.

So good. Yeah. Yeah. Um and when you're not

Yeah. Yeah. Um and when you're not building altitude, what do you do to

building altitude, what do you do to quiet your mind?

quiet your mind? Uh

Uh yeah, not enough. Um

yeah, not enough. Um go yeah, go going to the gym is probably

go yeah, go going to the gym is probably my form of meditation. Um yeah, like

my form of meditation. Um yeah, like last night at 8:00 p.m. I forced myself

last night at 8:00 p.m. I forced myself to go. I had to. And

to go. I had to. And Good for you. you don't

Good for you. you don't yeah you come back like okay thank god I

yeah you come back like okay thank god I did that but to after a hard long day

did that but to after a hard long day it's tough right and um but yeah I would

it's tough right and um but yeah I would say that is my best form of meditation

say that is my best form of meditation um I'm also like a big canoe trip

um I'm also like a big canoe trip outdoors person uh

outdoors person uh okay

okay yeah it's just those are harder to keep

yeah it's just those are harder to keep than heading to the gym

than heading to the gym yeah yeah yeah fair enough yeah and uh

yeah yeah yeah fair enough yeah and uh especially like to the activation energy

especially like to the activation energy to to get your setup ready drive out and

to to get your setup ready drive out and actually hit the water yeah it's no easy

actually hit the water yeah it's no easy task

task but once you're there and once you're in

but once you're there and once you're in it, you're like, "Wow, I should be doing

it, you're like, "Wow, I should be doing this every other weekend."

this every other weekend." Totally. Totally. Um, and at this stage

Totally. Totally. Um, and at this stage in your career, uh, what does success

in your career, uh, what does success look like for you?

look like for you? H.

H. Yeah. I I think, um, a very basic

Yeah. I I think, um, a very basic framework I have is I want to work with

framework I have is I want to work with really amazing people that I can learn

really amazing people that I can learn from, that I form a lot of trust and

from, that I form a lot of trust and respect and lifelong relationships with.

respect and lifelong relationships with. Um, I think life is a lot longer than

Um, I think life is a lot longer than people give it credit for and I want to

people give it credit for and I want to make sure that the people that I'm

make sure that the people that I'm partnering with in my career right now

partnering with in my career right now are people that I hope to partner with

are people that I hope to partner with in many different ways through the

in many different ways through the course of our lives. Um, I'm 35. I hope

course of our lives. Um, I'm 35. I hope I still have a bunch of time left. And I

I still have a bunch of time left. And I think a lot about building long-term

think a lot about building long-term relationships with really really uh, you

relationships with really really uh, you know, people I have a a lot of trust,

know, people I have a a lot of trust, respect, share values with. So, I think

respect, share values with. So, I think this is like the most important thing. I

this is like the most important thing. I also think uh I want to continue to make

also think uh I want to continue to make sure that I'm accelerating my learning

sure that I'm accelerating my learning as aggressively as possible. I think

as aggressively as possible. I think that um things especially now, but it's

that um things especially now, but it's always been this way are just changing

always been this way are just changing so fast that if you are not rapidly and

so fast that if you are not rapidly and always learning, you will fall behind

always learning, you will fall behind fast. And I think that's really really

fast. And I think that's really really important for

important for everybody no matter where you're at in

everybody no matter where you're at in your career. Uh it's something I've

your career. Uh it's something I've always been focused on. Um and then I

always been focused on. Um and then I just want to work on like interesting

just want to work on like interesting problems that have as global impact as

problems that have as global impact as possible. Um, yeah, it's kind of why I

possible. Um, yeah, it's kind of why I actually enjoy working in the like

actually enjoy working in the like movement of money space. Um, the size of

movement of money space. Um, the size of the opportunity is so large. The types

the opportunity is so large. The types of companies that you can, you know,

of companies that you can, you know, serve is so vast. It's really, really

serve is so vast. It's really, really fascinating. You learn a lot. It's

fascinating. You learn a lot. It's really fun. It's really interesting. Um,

really fun. It's really interesting. Um, I like breadth. Um, I like to be able to

I like breadth. Um, I like to be able to have as wide of an impact as as

have as wide of an impact as as possible.

possible. Yeah. I mean, that's a that's a great

Yeah. I mean, that's a that's a great answer. I mean working with working with

answer. I mean working with working with uh people that you can learn from and

uh people that you can learn from and then continuously learning that seems to

then continuously learning that seems to be the magic recipe across like all the

be the magic recipe across like all the all the great founders all the great

all the great founders all the great like senior people building companies.

like senior people building companies. So I like that. Hopefully it's a good

So I like that. Hopefully it's a good takeaway for

takeaway for for folks listening. Um so we're going

for folks listening. Um so we're going to wrap there. Phil, this is really

to wrap there. Phil, this is really great. Like yeah I think people will

great. Like yeah I think people will have learned a lot if they tune in and I

have learned a lot if they tune in and I appreciate your time today.

appreciate your time today. Cool. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I

Cool. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Behind [music] the

really appreciate it. Behind [music] the throw.

throw. Behind the throw.

Behind the throw. [music]

[music] One move and the whole thing goes. Yeah.

One move and the whole thing goes. Yeah. We build. We [music] build. We build it

We build. We [music] build. We build it real behind the