The Autonomous Mine: Rethinking Mining from First Principles

Behind the code.

Behind the code. [singing]

Behind the code. [singing] That's where the future grows.

That's where the future grows. Welcome to Behind the Code brought to

Welcome to Behind the Code brought to you by Atomic Build. My name is Emit and

you by Atomic Build. My name is Emit and with me today I have Johan, CEO of Ursa

with me today I have Johan, CEO of Ursa Mining. Welcome Yan. Really appreciate

Mining. Welcome Yan. Really appreciate you joining the show today.

you joining the show today. It's great to be here Emit. Thanks for

It's great to be here Emit. Thanks for having me man.

having me man. Of course. If if you can please uh give

Of course. If if you can please uh give a little intro about yourself that'd be

a little intro about yourself that'd be great.

great. Sure. So I'm a second generation minor.

Sure. So I'm a second generation minor. I was born into the mining industry. My

I was born into the mining industry. My dad saw a lot of success as a CEO

dad saw a lot of success as a CEO scaling exploration companies into uh

scaling exploration companies into uh developing operations as well as um you

developing operations as well as um you know mid-tier producers. Um he did that

know mid-tier producers. Um he did that across the Africas as well as the

across the Africas as well as the Americas. So north south and early in my

Americas. So north south and early in my childhood I was raised in Colombia. I

childhood I was raised in Colombia. I was homeschooled out there so I could

was homeschooled out there so I could travel with him out to the projects and

travel with him out to the projects and uh learn the industry firsthand from

uh learn the industry firsthand from him. Every day he would tell me one day

him. Every day he would tell me one day you're going to take over the family

you're going to take over the family business. I found that to be very

business. I found that to be very overbearing. So I went and I pursued a

overbearing. So I went and I pursued a career in physics. Did my undergrad at a

career in physics. Did my undergrad at a small university out in Southern

small university out in Southern California. And I like to joke and say

California. And I like to joke and say that I ended up side questing at CERN.

that I ended up side questing at CERN. Um through one of my professors at that

Um through one of my professors at that university, I started doing um particle

university, I started doing um particle physics research specifically for

physics research specifically for electron and muon filtration techniques.

electron and muon filtration techniques. Did that for some time and then I

Did that for some time and then I realized that uh I would much rather uh

realized that uh I would much rather uh do something tangible. No offense to

do something tangible. No offense to CERN. I think it's great out there and

CERN. I think it's great out there and very uh very intense and prestigious.

very uh very intense and prestigious. However, um turns out the dirt was where

However, um turns out the dirt was where I needed to be all along. I took a

I needed to be all along. I took a quality time trip with my dad uh to one

quality time trip with my dad uh to one of his sites um shortly after, you know,

of his sites um shortly after, you know, coming back to the States and I fell in

coming back to the States and I fell in love with the industry. Um I ended up

love with the industry. Um I ended up working for him at one of his operations

working for him at one of his operations and shortly into working there, I worked

and shortly into working there, I worked a ton of different odd jobs. I realized

a ton of different odd jobs. I realized that there is a lot of potential to

that there is a lot of potential to revolutionize mining. The way that mines

revolutionize mining. The way that mines currently operate is I'm not going to

currently operate is I'm not going to say antiquated because it's not and and

say antiquated because it's not and and I have to give the industry its flowers.

I have to give the industry its flowers. They do things very well. But there are

They do things very well. But there are far more efficient ways to do things in

far more efficient ways to do things in the age of AI and I saw an opportunity.

the age of AI and I saw an opportunity. So um you know in roughly you know fall

So um you know in roughly you know fall of uh 2025

of uh 2025 I believe now. Yeah. I left um I ended

I believe now. Yeah. I left um I ended up in San Francisco where I founded

up in San Francisco where I founded Ursa. So yeah,

Ursa. So yeah, as far as side quests go, um that is

as far as side quests go, um that is quite that is quite a side quest to go

quite that is quite a side quest to go to Stern and study uh particle physics.

to Stern and study uh particle physics. Um what what what pulled you back in? So

Um what what what pulled you back in? So you mentioned uh I guess like like all

you mentioned uh I guess like like all good parents, overbearing is part of the

good parents, overbearing is part of the game and um that might pulled you away a

game and um that might pulled you away a little bit, but what brought you back in

little bit, but what brought you back in uh into the industry to pursue mining uh

uh into the industry to pursue mining uh specifically mining technology?

specifically mining technology? It's interesting.

It's interesting. I was always peripherilally aware that

I was always peripherilally aware that of the fact that minds have really big

of the fact that minds have really big robots moving around the operation all

robots moving around the operation all the time. But I didn't realize or I

the time. But I didn't realize or I think rather I didn't appreciate how

think rather I didn't appreciate how truly useful that work was. And as a kid

truly useful that work was. And as a kid I had always loved robots and I always

I had always loved robots and I always knew that I wanted to do something in

knew that I wanted to do something in technology in some capacity. But for me,

technology in some capacity. But for me, it was really about discovering that

it was really about discovering that eeky guy. And I think when my boots hit

eeky guy. And I think when my boots hit the ground, it all came washing over me

the ground, it all came washing over me and I realized that this is the industry

and I realized that this is the industry that I was meant for. I was, you know,

that I was meant for. I was, you know, born for it, so to speak. And I think

born for it, so to speak. And I think that it's very difficult to describe the

that it's very difficult to describe the the, you know, the feeling that you have

the, you know, the feeling that you have when you make that kind of a discovery

when you make that kind of a discovery after you've been searching for your,

after you've been searching for your, you know, your life's mission

you know, your life's mission essentially. And when it hits you, you

essentially. And when it hits you, you know, it's like you when you know, you

know, it's like you when you know, you know, you know what I mean? And so that

know, you know what I mean? And so that was the moment for me.

was the moment for me. Wow. So there was like a almost uh an

Wow. So there was like a almost uh an internal force pulling you back in some

internal force pulling you back in some way.

way. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. It's

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. It's like life tends to go full circle in

like life tends to go full circle in very weird ways, at least based on my

very weird ways, at least based on my observation, you know, and so I think

observation, you know, and so I think that's also part of the part of uh if

that's also part of the part of uh if not the primary driving force behind me

not the primary driving force behind me is there's this deeprooted sense of

is there's this deeprooted sense of conviction that we will do this and that

conviction that we will do this and that we will be able to pull this off that

we will be able to pull this off that this is the story that is waiting to be

this is the story that is waiting to be told and it's just a matter of just

told and it's just a matter of just turning the page and that's what it's

turning the page and that's what it's felt like since we started. So, you

felt like since we started. So, you know,

know, it's an enjoyable process.

it's an enjoyable process. Yeah. I mean that's a that's a that

Yeah. I mean that's a that's a that phrase is quite a momentum builder

phrase is quite a momentum builder internally like feeling like you're

internally like feeling like you're you're meant to do something. Um so I

you're meant to do something. Um so I can certainly appreciate that and and

can certainly appreciate that and and you bring a a different lens. So as a

you bring a a different lens. So as a physicist you must see things slightly

physicist you must see things slightly differently than like like a minor

differently than like like a minor purebred minor. Um so since you didn't

purebred minor. Um so since you didn't spend your whole career in the industry

spend your whole career in the industry what do you see differently as someone

what do you see differently as someone who did? I just think that when you

who did? I just think that when you approach it with a I would say new and

approach it with a I would say new and let's say classically educated set of

let's say classically educated set of eyes, you can immediately break things

eyes, you can immediately break things down into first principles. And it took

down into first principles. And it took me, you know, about a year or so of

me, you know, about a year or so of really chewing on the various, you know,

really chewing on the various, you know, subprocesses that exist within a

subprocesses that exist within a functioning mind to understand how to

functioning mind to understand how to systematically, you know, like build and

systematically, you know, like build and iterate something that can effectively

iterate something that can effectively explode in terms of size, magnitude,

explode in terms of size, magnitude, impact across the industry, right? But

impact across the industry, right? But it only needs it needs to start with

it only needs it needs to start with something that is, you know, very cheap,

something that is, you know, very cheap, very easy to do. And that is not

very easy to do. And that is not something that is easy to conceptualize,

something that is easy to conceptualize, let alone prove when you go out and

let alone prove when you go out and start talking to more customers, you

start talking to more customers, you know, at least, you know, that's that's

know, at least, you know, that's that's sort of the common wisdom. We've been

sort of the common wisdom. We've been fortunate enough to be pretty on the

fortunate enough to be pretty on the money when it came to the things that we

money when it came to the things that we knew we needed to build. And uh I think

knew we needed to build. And uh I think that is one of the advantages as well of

that is one of the advantages as well of knowing the industry that you're going

knowing the industry that you're going into to disrupt. So I think that you

into to disrupt. So I think that you know the first principles

know the first principles breaking down if you will of the of the

breaking down if you will of the of the uh of the you know again of just the

uh of the you know again of just the mining process if you will can

mining process if you will can lead to some breakthroughs that folks

lead to some breakthroughs that folks that have been in the industry their

that have been in the industry their entire lives won't necessarily make just

entire lives won't necessarily make just because they seem somewhat

because they seem somewhat counterintuitive.

counterintuitive. Yeah that I mean that makes a lot of

Yeah that I mean that makes a lot of sense and and from um a standpoint of

sense and and from um a standpoint of when you're looking at the problem at

when you're looking at the problem at some point you thought autonomy makes

some point you thought autonomy makes sense here. What was the specific

sense here. What was the specific problem you were looking at when you

problem you were looking at when you made that connection?

made that connection? Mines really only care about moving dirt

Mines really only care about moving dirt and maintaining the status quo. You can

and maintaining the status quo. You can maintain that status quo and do it

maintain that status quo and do it cheaper. It immediately solves for one

cheaper. It immediately solves for one of their stakeholders bottom lines which

of their stakeholders bottom lines which is increased profitability in the

is increased profitability in the operation which is again this is first

operation which is again this is first principles thinking right if you're able

principles thinking right if you're able to do something at a lower cost

to do something at a lower cost obviously there's going to be demand and

obviously there's going to be demand and obviously there's going to be a market

obviously there's going to be a market for it. Again the question and I alluded

for it. Again the question and I alluded to this in the previous or sort of you

to this in the previous or sort of you know whatever but the question is really

know whatever but the question is really how do you do that in a cost-effective

how do you do that in a cost-effective manner and how do you do that with as

manner and how do you do that with as few resources as possible. So yeah

few resources as possible. So yeah so for those uh not in the industry when

so for those uh not in the industry when you say like moving dirt you mean in the

you say like moving dirt you mean in the like the pursuit of uh precious

like the pursuit of uh precious materials or actually constructing a

materials or actually constructing a mine ground up or finding new areas or

mine ground up or finding new areas or or is it all across the surface areas?

or is it all across the surface areas? It's unilateral. Um however there are

It's unilateral. Um however there are certain benefits to deeply understanding

certain benefits to deeply understanding let's say mining specific processes very

let's say mining specific processes very well. Uhhuh.

well. Uhhuh. And

And when I say moving dirt, I'm specifically

when I say moving dirt, I'm specifically talking about those processes, the ones

talking about those processes, the ones that are unique to mining that are

that are unique to mining that are derived from the unit economics of a

derived from the unit economics of a sustainable mining operation and how do

sustainable mining operation and how do you impact those because those are the

you impact those because those are the value drivers for the customer.

value drivers for the customer. Right. So, okay. So, self self-driving

Right. So, okay. So, self self-driving which is like a force really changing

which is like a force really changing most of transportation. From your

most of transportation. From your standpoint, why do you think a mine is

standpoint, why do you think a mine is better or or perhaps harder environment

better or or perhaps harder environment for autonomy versus a city street?

for autonomy versus a city street? Fun question. I think it's a lot better,

Fun question. I think it's a lot better, but at the same time, it does come with

but at the same time, it does come with with its trade-offs. It is a lot worse

with its trade-offs. It is a lot worse in many ways. That person that's running

in many ways. That person that's running around in the Whimo in the middle of the

around in the Whimo in the middle of the city isn't going to throw a fit if

city isn't going to throw a fit if they're 1 minute later than their

they're 1 minute later than their 15minut expected uh you know, travel

15minut expected uh you know, travel time takes, right? But for a mine, you

time takes, right? But for a mine, you know, it's, you know, what is it? 1 over

know, it's, you know, what is it? 1 over 15, right? Or 1 over 16, whatever. Like

15, right? Or 1 over 16, whatever. Like that's a percentage that directly

that's a percentage that directly impacts their bottom line, you know,

impacts their bottom line, you know, daily profitability, right? And that

daily profitability, right? And that percentage in some cases could be the

percentage in some cases could be the difference between, you know, break even

difference between, you know, break even and potentially running in the red. And

and potentially running in the red. And so the

so the I would say the safety aspects

I would say the safety aspects themselves are far easier in mining

themselves are far easier in mining environments. they're highly controlled.

environments. they're highly controlled. Um you can actually really sort of say

Um you can actually really sort of say design your own mine if you will in

design your own mine if you will in collaboration with whoever you're

collaboration with whoever you're deploying with. But at the same time um

deploying with. But at the same time um the stakes are a lot higher for getting

the stakes are a lot higher for getting it right

it right because of the the sheer costs of the

because of the the sheer costs of the and scale of the operation.

and scale of the operation. The costs are a lot higher for being

The costs are a lot higher for being precise. Let me put it that way. You

precise. Let me put it that way. You know, I don't want to equate, you know,

know, I don't want to equate, you know, like a a Whimo hitting or or whatever

like a a Whimo hitting or or whatever hitting someone, right? It's a tragedy.

hitting someone, right? It's a tragedy. And in a mining environment, you can

And in a mining environment, you can control for those so you can make sure

control for those so you can make sure nobody enters certain regions. However,

nobody enters certain regions. However, the requirement for precision on what

the requirement for precision on what your act what your actual objective is

your act what your actual objective is that is I would argue quite a bit

that is I would argue quite a bit higher.

higher. That and and intuitively that makes

That and and intuitively that makes sense cuz the like the connection point

sense cuz the like the connection point like you made earlier. Uh being late in

like you made earlier. Uh being late in consumer travel is normal like like

consumer travel is normal like like people are often late, Uber drivers are

people are often late, Uber drivers are late, people are late. However, I think

late, people are late. However, I think like you said in commercial operation,

like you said in commercial operation, especially heavy industry, that is not a

especially heavy industry, that is not a word that's thrown around like it's okay

word that's thrown around like it's okay to be late by 5, 10, 20 minutes,

to be late by 5, 10, 20 minutes, like California time, you know.

like California time, you know. [laughter]

[laughter] Right. Right. Fair enough. Um, so what's

Right. Right. Fair enough. Um, so what's something that the the mining industry

something that the the mining industry understands about autonomy uh when you

understands about autonomy uh when you started uh Ursa that Silicon Valley

started uh Ursa that Silicon Valley might misunderstand? And the other side

might misunderstand? And the other side of that is what does Silicon Valley

of that is what does Silicon Valley understand that mining companies might

understand that mining companies might be missing? M Silicon Valley deeply

be missing? M Silicon Valley deeply understands the rate at which technology

understands the rate at which technology can improve the world around us, can

can improve the world around us, can streamline things and make them more

streamline things and make them more efficient, make them better. A lot of

efficient, make them better. A lot of folks in the industry still allude to

folks in the industry still allude to autonomy as some faroff construct that

autonomy as some faroff construct that may exist when they're long gone, but I

may exist when they're long gone, but I don't think they realize, at least until

don't think they realize, at least until you show them proof otherwise, that

you show them proof otherwise, that autonomy is progressing at an

autonomy is progressing at an unprecedented rate and that this rate is

unprecedented rate and that this rate is only going to continue to compound to

only going to continue to compound to the point where, at least I believe,

the point where, at least I believe, generalized robotics as a field is going

generalized robotics as a field is going to be solved for and commoditized where

to be solved for and commoditized where it no longer becomes about who has the

it no longer becomes about who has the best specific policy to control this one

best specific policy to control this one kind of end effect. No, it's actually

kind of end effect. No, it's actually everything to do with the wrapper that

everything to do with the wrapper that exists around that let's say that

exists around that let's say that foundation model and we've observed this

foundation model and we've observed this pattern with the major frontier labs

pattern with the major frontier labs open AI anthropic and then you have

open AI anthropic and then you have let's say like Harvey for legal right

let's say like Harvey for legal right it's trained on proprietary data right

it's trained on proprietary data right but at the same time it is a completely

but at the same time it is a completely let's say like derived solution that was

let's say like derived solution that was built on top of largely uh what these

built on top of largely uh what these other frontier labs are putting out. So

other frontier labs are putting out. So that's what I think the mining industry

that's what I think the mining industry misses that Silicon Valley understands.

misses that Silicon Valley understands. But what Silicon Valley doesn't

But what Silicon Valley doesn't understand about mining, and I've been

understand about mining, and I've been saying this since day one, is that mines

saying this since day one, is that mines are not nearly as um antiquated as

are not nearly as um antiquated as people think they are not. In fact, I

people think they are not. In fact, I believe this was the first like real

believe this was the first like real commercial use case of off-road autonomy

commercial use case of off-road autonomy was at a mine owned by Riotinto in

was at a mine owned by Riotinto in Australia. This is back in 2008 when

Australia. This is back in 2008 when they first piloted it. And the industry

they first piloted it. And the industry itself holistically has been very

itself holistically has been very embracing of autonomy.

embracing of autonomy. And I think that a lot of folks out in

And I think that a lot of folks out in Silicon Valley comparatively speaking

Silicon Valley comparatively speaking like assume that miners are just a bunch

like assume that miners are just a bunch of lites. They're not. And they are

of lites. They're not. And they are acutely aware of the value that it can

acutely aware of the value that it can bring to the industry. But there's a

bring to the industry. But there's a very high barrier of trust that you need

very high barrier of trust that you need to be able to, you know, speak through,

to be able to, you know, speak through, communicate through. It's not a hurdle

communicate through. It's not a hurdle that you jump over. It's something that

that you jump over. It's something that you actually have to pass through. And

you actually have to pass through. And that's something that I think really

that's something that I think really serves us large in no small part due to

serves us large in no small part due to my background and the shared language

my background and the shared language that we have. But it also has to do with

that we have. But it also has to do with the type of business that you want to

the type of business that you want to build from day one. So, you know, I

build from day one. So, you know, I think that the Silicon Valley doesn't

think that the Silicon Valley doesn't really um understand the you know, like

really um understand the you know, like the culture of uh of you know, miners

the culture of uh of you know, miners today. Yeah, I guess that's a pretty

today. Yeah, I guess that's a pretty hard um wall to cross over unless you uh

hard um wall to cross over unless you uh get very close to the problem either

get very close to the problem either from a physical proximity or study it uh

from a physical proximity or study it uh or like yourself be born into it and

or like yourself be born into it and then use technology to start to reshape

then use technology to start to reshape it. Um, and speaking of like being far

it. Um, and speaking of like being far out and zooming in for a moment, if um,

out and zooming in for a moment, if um, we were beside an excavator at one of

we were beside an excavator at one of the sites you're you're working on, um,

the sites you're you're working on, um, what what has Ursa added to that machine

what what has Ursa added to that machine to give it ability that it can do

to give it ability that it can do something now that it wasn't doing

something now that it wasn't doing before?

before? So, and by the way, this is this holds

So, and by the way, this is this holds for excavators as much as it does for

for excavators as much as it does for bulldozers, wheeled loaders or haul

bulldozers, wheeled loaders or haul trucks or any other kind of machine is

trucks or any other kind of machine is that we give each machine perception.

that we give each machine perception. And this perception is important because

And this perception is important because it allows mines to monitor their

it allows mines to monitor their equipment more precisely. they can

equipment more precisely. they can monitor the state of the operation and

monitor the state of the operation and it's critical to

it's critical to implement that in a way that is very

implement that in a way that is very useful for the end customers and you

useful for the end customers and you know it's it it's really um it's it's

know it's it it's really um it's it's one of those things where again it's not

one of those things where again it's not really about the underlying technology

really about the underlying technology it's about the it's in the method that

it's about the it's in the method that you use to deliver that technology and

you use to deliver that technology and how you make it useful. Um the way that

how you make it useful. Um the way that the machine behaves itself isn't any

the machine behaves itself isn't any different and that's the beauty of it is

different and that's the beauty of it is that minds are you know on the one hand

that minds are you know on the one hand they are keenly aware of and believe in

they are keenly aware of and believe in the benefits of autonomy but they are a

the benefits of autonomy but they are a little slower moving in the rest of your

little slower moving in the rest of your in the rest of these industries out

in the rest of these industries out there. Um they're a little more

there. Um they're a little more hesitant. that bit more risk averse and

hesitant. that bit more risk averse and there is a ramp up plan that at least we

there is a ramp up plan that at least we have in place for how we are going to

have in place for how we are going to you know be able to achieve level four

you know be able to achieve level four level five autonomy across these sites

level five autonomy across these sites and it's something that we have a lot of

and it's something that we have a lot of buyin for across the board but it starts

buyin for across the board but it starts with very small steps but the point is

with very small steps but the point is though is that these steps are are

though is that these steps are are spaced at regular intervals where over

spaced at regular intervals where over the course of a year the operation is

the course of a year the operation is going to look a lot different than let's

going to look a lot different than let's say comparatively speaking between month

say comparatively speaking between month zero and month one. I think that's a

zero and month one. I think that's a that's a key point that um any company

that's a key point that um any company trying to deploy autonomous technology

trying to deploy autonomous technology AI implementation etc to take stock of

AI implementation etc to take stock of that the pace in which change is

that the pace in which change is possible has to be taken on by the

possible has to be taken on by the product itself. Um and I think sometimes

product itself. Um and I think sometimes uh companies can hit a wall when they're

uh companies can hit a wall when they're trying to drive a pace instead of

trying to drive a pace instead of embrace a pace. So I think the way you

embrace a pace. So I think the way you said that was very well stated um not

said that was very well stated um not just in mining but across other sectors.

just in mining but across other sectors. I mean who is any given startup no

I mean who is any given startup no matter how brazen to say this is how the

matter how brazen to say this is how the customer should do their job. You follow

customer should do their job. You follow the customer's leads and that's the

the customer's leads and that's the beauty of working with customers and

beauty of working with customers and it's why it's the age-old mantra of

it's why it's the age-old mantra of startups worldwide. You work closely

startups worldwide. You work closely with your customers and you figure out

with your customers and you figure out the pace in which you need to move with

the pace in which you need to move with them and you acclimate.

them and you acclimate. Right. Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. Um

Right. Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. Um and so like there's a difference between

and so like there's a difference between an impressive demo and then building in

an impressive demo and then building in some trust into the machine to operate

some trust into the machine to operate for thousands of hours. Um, in your

for thousands of hours. Um, in your opinion, where does that uh whichever

opinion, where does that uh whichever percentage you attribute it to, but

percentage you attribute it to, but where does that reliability come from

where does that reliability come from and that trust built like where does it

and that trust built like where does it derive from?

derive from? The earlier stage the product is, the

The earlier stage the product is, the more heavy lifting you need to do on

more heavy lifting you need to do on defining the processes beforehand. There

defining the processes beforehand. There has to be a protocol for how to hop in

has to be a protocol for how to hop in and make sure the operation stays

and make sure the operation stays running. There has to be protocols and

running. There has to be protocols and fail safes in place that no matter what

fail safes in place that no matter what transpires, the operation itself is

transpires, the operation itself is going to be okay. and that the and that

going to be okay. and that the and that things are going to continue flowing

things are going to continue flowing smoothly and that no one's going to end

smoothly and that no one's going to end up, you know, getting fired because they

up, you know, getting fired because they decided to work with you. So, and again

decided to work with you. So, and again like there there's that trade-off,

like there there's that trade-off, right? So, at the earliest stage almost

right? So, at the earliest stage almost all of your work is process driven and

all of your work is process driven and the later through the product life cycle

the later through the product life cycle you get and as the product and the

you get and as the product and the technology itself matures, it begins to

technology itself matures, it begins to alleviate some of the pressure on the

alleviate some of the pressure on the requirement for finding those processes

requirement for finding those processes beforehand. So,

beforehand. So, uh, like seeing mine operations

uh, like seeing mine operations firsthand, uh, studying prom, presuming

firsthand, uh, studying prom, presuming you've met with all all levels of

you've met with all all levels of operator inside a mine. Um, when do you

operator inside a mine. Um, when do you think like, uh, mine or maybe even a

think like, uh, mine or maybe even a machine operator starts to trust the

machine operator starts to trust the system that you're building?

system that you're building? Interestingly enough, the machine

Interestingly enough, the machine operator trusts it within an hour. This

operator trusts it within an hour. This is something we've observed across

is something we've observed across operators that we've had come and, you

operators that we've had come and, you know, test our test our system.

know, test our test our system. Um, for the mine management, which are

Um, for the mine management, which are ironically they're also referred to as

ironically they're also referred to as operators. I know it's confusing, but

operators. I know it's confusing, but for the mind management, they typically

for the mind management, they typically want to see a chain of evidence

want to see a chain of evidence or chain of reasoning, if you will, that

or chain of reasoning, if you will, that can walk them to the ideal outcome that

can walk them to the ideal outcome that is where they want to be from where they

is where they want to be from where they are today. And you have to have that

are today. And you have to have that evidencebased approach to be able to

evidencebased approach to be able to come to them and say hey like this thing

come to them and say hey like this thing is going to be doing X in you know three

is going to be doing X in you know three months it's going to be doing Y in uh

months it's going to be doing Y in uh you know 6 months and then by month 12

you know 6 months and then by month 12 you're going to have you know XYZ right

you're going to have you know XYZ right and there needs to be a sufficient

and there needs to be a sufficient amount of evidence backed by let's say

amount of evidence backed by let's say reputable

reputable similar case studies for them to be

similar case studies for them to be willing to make that leap. And that was

willing to make that leap. And that was one of the things with us, right? We ran

one of the things with us, right? We ran our um we ran our pilot this summer. It

our um we ran our pilot this summer. It was a success. Um it, you know, it it

was a success. Um it, you know, it it really led to a breakthrough for because

really led to a breakthrough for because no mine wants to be the first, but many

no mine wants to be the first, but many mines want to be the first to move

mines want to be the first to move second. And so we were fortunate enough

second. And so we were fortunate enough to have a first mover that trusted us

to have a first mover that trusted us enough and knew that we were responsible

enough and knew that we were responsible enough to be able to go out there and do

enough to be able to go out there and do the job roughly as well as what they

the job roughly as well as what they currently have out there in the field.

currently have out there in the field. And for us that was the breakthrough

And for us that was the breakthrough because then you have that first point

because then you have that first point of evidence. You have that first reason

of evidence. You have that first reason why you're going to be able to deliver

why you're going to be able to deliver on XYZ over 12 months and then the mind

on XYZ over 12 months and then the mind manager goes okay I think we can do

manager goes okay I think we can do this. So, so going back to um structured

this. So, so going back to um structured roll out, evidence points and moving at

roll out, evidence points and moving at the pace of your customer rather than

the pace of your customer rather than the pace. Okay, got it. So, I mean,

the pace. Okay, got it. So, I mean, we're seeing a formula emerging that

we're seeing a formula emerging that that seems to be working. So, that's

that seems to be working. So, that's really good. Um, so you talk about like

really good. Um, so you talk about like your long-term vision just beyond

your long-term vision just beyond retrofitting machines, um, having

retrofitting machines, um, having purpose-built autonomous equipment and

purpose-built autonomous equipment and then having autonomous modular minds.

then having autonomous modular minds. Um, if you could redesign from first

Um, if you could redesign from first principles, what were what would be um

principles, what were what would be um like like what would you redesign if you

like like what would you redesign if you could remove some of the assumptions

could remove some of the assumptions that humans have have made in operating

that humans have have made in operating minds?

minds? The reason why I'm pausing is because

The reason why I'm pausing is because there's a there's a saying that I often

there's a there's a saying that I often like to throw out there, which is if you

like to throw out there, which is if you assume that every single problem that

assume that every single problem that occurs on a mine is a pixel on an image.

occurs on a mine is a pixel on an image. When you zoom out to look at the entire

When you zoom out to look at the entire image, it's a picture of the mine. A

image, it's a picture of the mine. A mine is a bunch of micro like

mine is a bunch of micro like microscopic problems all strung

microscopic problems all strung together.

together. And the ultimate in my eyes at least the

And the ultimate in my eyes at least the ultimate way in which you can transform

ultimate way in which you can transform mining is to transform the equipment

mining is to transform the equipment itself that's doing the job. There is a

itself that's doing the job. There is a high limiting factor that makes mines

high limiting factor that makes mines absurdly expensive to finance. Don't

absurdly expensive to finance. Don't even get me started on the permitting

even get me started on the permitting side in the states, but it seems like

side in the states, but it seems like that's improving. But the capital

that's improving. But the capital requirements involved to build and

requirements involved to build and maintain a mine are enormous.

maintain a mine are enormous. And think about it for a second, right?

And think about it for a second, right? If you could reduce the cost to develop

If you could reduce the cost to develop a mine by a factor of say 10, you would

a mine by a factor of say 10, you would see roughly, you know, 5 to 10 times

see roughly, you know, 5 to 10 times more mining, you know, like like

more mining, you know, like like producing mines emerge year-over-year.

producing mines emerge year-over-year. If you could reduce that cost by let's

If you could reduce that cost by let's say 100, you also reduce the scale at

say 100, you also reduce the scale at which those mines need to operate to be

which those mines need to operate to be financially viable.

financially viable. And when you consider how the industry

And when you consider how the industry functions, towns, entire towns are built

functions, towns, entire towns are built around mines and sometimes vice versa.

around mines and sometimes vice versa. Mines are only selected and developed if

Mines are only selected and developed if they exist in close proximity to towns.

they exist in close proximity to towns. If you remove the cost factors and if

If you remove the cost factors and if you're able to make the systems that run

you're able to make the systems that run these what's called new age machines

these what's called new age machines intelligent enough to largely self-

intelligent enough to largely self- sustain, you eliminate the vast majority

sustain, you eliminate the vast majority of your overhead required to develop a

of your overhead required to develop a mind. And so when we say small and

mind. And so when we say small and modular minds, what we really mean is

modular minds, what we really mean is that the uh the environmental and let's

that the uh the environmental and let's say like socioeconomic impact per square

say like socioeconomic impact per square foot is radically let's say reduced but

foot is radically let's say reduced but it is also equally distributed, right?

it is also equally distributed, right? Where you no longer affect entire biomes

Where you no longer affect entire biomes or entire regions and instead you're

or entire regions and instead you're creating these these very small

creating these these very small profitable operations that can produce

profitable operations that can produce goods and you create a you know

goods and you create a you know essentially I'm not going to say like a

essentially I'm not going to say like a decentralized ecosystem, right? It's

decentralized ecosystem, right? It's kind of weird, but at the very least, it

kind of weird, but at the very least, it takes the load off of a single point of

takes the load off of a single point of failure for a single mine shutting down

failure for a single mine shutting down and causing a, you know, worldwide

and causing a, you know, worldwide shortage of some something, right? So

shortage of some something, right? So and so we sort of mean by that is that

and so we sort of mean by that is that you know you want to reduce cost by

you know you want to reduce cost by 10,000x go and rebuild the machines

10,000x go and rebuild the machines rethink the way that they run and

rethink the way that they run and stringing those two things together you

stringing those two things together you can create far more mines and you can

can create far more mines and you can realize uh I would say like it's the

realize uh I would say like it's the kind of mining operation that isn't say

kind of mining operation that isn't say as environmentally impactful as they are

as environmentally impactful as they are today.

today. Right. Yeah. that that's uh it's not

Right. Yeah. that that's uh it's not precisely but it reminds me or it's

precisely but it reminds me or it's analogous to the idea of the micro

analogous to the idea of the micro nuclear reactors instead of having large

nuclear reactors instead of having large ones they create these mini reactors

ones they create these mini reactors across different distributed areas to

across different distributed areas to move to move the cost of energy down. So

move to move the cost of energy down. So as you said that just just pinged in my

as you said that just just pinged in my mind only because like the data center

mind only because like the data center conversation is always top of mind it

conversation is always top of mind it feels like in the news. Um, so this idea

feels like in the news. Um, so this idea that you could create small modular

that you could create small modular minds to extract and have no single

minds to extract and have no single failure point that that sounds very

failure point that that sounds very attractive given what we need as a as an

attractive given what we need as a as an economy.

economy. Autonomous minds are actually one of the

Autonomous minds are actually one of the single biggest justifications for

single biggest justifications for upskilling rural America.

upskilling rural America. And on top of that, autonomous minds are

And on top of that, autonomous minds are also one of the biggest justifications

also one of the biggest justifications for how we can redistribute wealth

for how we can redistribute wealth across middle America. towns derive, at

across middle America. towns derive, at least mining towns, a vast majority of

least mining towns, a vast majority of their economic surplus when they are in

their economic surplus when they are in a surplus um from mining operations. And

a surplus um from mining operations. And when you travel across a lot of these

when you travel across a lot of these areas, you find mining towns that are

areas, you find mining towns that are absolutely devastated by mine closures.

absolutely devastated by mine closures. And these places are effectively ghost

And these places are effectively ghost towns. And the people there don't really

towns. And the people there don't really get the best educations. And it's just

get the best educations. And it's just like they're in they're in a rut. In my

like they're in they're in a rut. In my eyes, the way to breathe life back into

eyes, the way to breathe life back into a lot of these regions is to drastically

a lot of these regions is to drastically reduce the human requirements and the

reduce the human requirements and the capital requirements associated with

capital requirements associated with developing or restarting mining

developing or restarting mining operations across at least the states

operations across at least the states and the world and beyond.

and the world and beyond. Wow. I mean that's a that that in of

Wow. I mean that's a that that in of itself is a very powerful point. Um I

itself is a very powerful point. Um I have not traveled across rural America

have not traveled across rural America to the extent that you have. Um I I used

to the extent that you have. Um I I used to be in the trucking industry but the

to be in the trucking industry but the point is sound that uh it's so

point is sound that uh it's so contingent on an industry when it

contingent on an industry when it disappears it really ruins the the town

disappears it really ruins the the town or city or group of people and um that

or city or group of people and um that is a very unfortunate thing that's

is a very unfortunate thing that's solvable now especially with the work

solvable now especially with the work that you're doing

that you're doing especially in today's age everyone has a

especially in today's age everyone has a cell phone right everyone has AI the

cell phone right everyone has AI the opportunities out there to upskill these

opportunities out there to upskill these swas of the population have never been

swas of the population have never been bigger

bigger right

right and the let's say the upskill time has

and the let's say the upskill time has never been shorter. So for me this is

never been shorter. So for me this is really a perfect storm to experiment and

really a perfect storm to experiment and you know um we're you know we're testing

you know um we're you know we're testing here and there with various ideas as far

here and there with various ideas as far as how we could actually enact that

as how we could actually enact that because you know people need some kind

because you know people need some kind of a motivating and driving force behind

of a motivating and driving force behind them for them to upskill because in

them for them to upskill because in current day mine is running unskilled

current day mine is running unskilled let's say labor can drive a car let me

let's say labor can drive a car let me go and be a hall truck driver. You

go and be a hall truck driver. You mentioned that um robotic companies

mentioned that um robotic companies should charge more and almost guarantee

should charge more and almost guarantee an outcome which is uh like pretty much

an outcome which is uh like pretty much the exact opposite of SAS playbook um

the exact opposite of SAS playbook um towards lowering friction and chasing

towards lowering friction and chasing adoption. Um why do you think robotics

adoption. Um why do you think robotics should be sold differently?

should be sold differently? The

The unit economics of the physical world

unit economics of the physical world operate differently than the unit

operate differently than the unit economics of the digital world.

economics of the digital world. The reality is the majority of software

The reality is the majority of software companies out there are not entirely

companies out there are not entirely clear on how much of the variable cost

clear on how much of the variable cost pie they're actually saving their

pie they're actually saving their customers. And so because of that, what

customers. And so because of that, what you end up with is either a, in my eyes

you end up with is either a, in my eyes at least, a difficult to justify model

at least, a difficult to justify model of we saved customer X, so we're going

of we saved customer X, so we're going to charge 20% of X and that's our billy

to charge 20% of X and that's our billy model. But for the physical world, every

model. But for the physical world, every thing that you move has some intrinsic

thing that you move has some intrinsic value. And I might get a little physics

value. And I might get a little physics here, physicsy here for a second, but it

here, physicsy here for a second, but it also takes a lot of time in in in many

also takes a lot of time in in in many cases to perform an action or a series

cases to perform an action or a series of actions that leads to a desirable

of actions that leads to a desirable outcome. It's that process that you have

outcome. It's that process that you have to be able to guarantee.

to be able to guarantee. And that guarantee is often times worth

And that guarantee is often times worth more than the let's say current status

more than the let's say current status than what the current status quo is

than what the current status quo is paying for the results that it's getting

paying for the results that it's getting because what you're doing is you're

because what you're doing is you're guaranteeing the result. You're

guaranteeing the result. You're not you're and it's difficult to it's

not you're and it's difficult to it's difficult to really put this into terms

difficult to really put this into terms without giving a concrete example in

without giving a concrete example in mining. So I think the best way to I

mining. So I think the best way to I would say like define this is if you

would say like define this is if you have like you know some machine out

have like you know some machine out there right that's let's say on a

there right that's let's say on a construction site right and you know

construction site right and you know that guy charges 32 hours or sorry 32

that guy charges 32 hours or sorry 32 bucks an hour right but as a GC you know

bucks an hour right but as a GC you know this guy and you know that he's not

this guy and you know that he's not showing up let's say one out of every 30

showing up let's say one out of every 30 days because he's a bit you know he just

days because he's a bit you know he just you know maybe has a temper that risk

you know maybe has a temper that risk profile for that operator is immediately

profile for that operator is immediately immediately goes up because that could

immediately goes up because that could cause a setback of some kind, but robots

cause a setback of some kind, but robots don't have tempers and they behave, you

don't have tempers and they behave, you know, relatively predictively, at least

know, relatively predictively, at least on the, you know, the temperament side.

on the, you know, the temperament side. So, if you can guarantee some kind of an

So, if you can guarantee some kind of an outcome where the robot is effectively

outcome where the robot is effectively able to do the operator's job, then at

able to do the operator's job, then at least in some cases, you can charge as

least in some cases, you can charge as much if not more for an equivalent like

much if not more for an equivalent like let's say output, right? Work output.

let's say output, right? Work output. But the difference is is that there it's

But the difference is is that there it's no longer a 98% chance that they are

no longer a 98% chance that they are going to deliver for their end customer.

going to deliver for their end customer. It's a 100% chance. And what's that

It's a 100% chance. And what's that worth, right?

worth, right? Yeah. I I think um as you stated,

Yeah. I I think um as you stated, the physical world has observable

the physical world has observable results so much faster and it's like a

results so much faster and it's like a concrete uh I guess goal as a service

concrete uh I guess goal as a service provider that you have to hit. Um, so

provider that you have to hit. Um, so for you and and at Ursa Mining, like

for you and and at Ursa Mining, like what's the what's one of the evaluation

what's the what's one of the evaluation criterias or number that is po posed to

criterias or number that is po posed to you right out of the gate? Like this is

you right out of the gate? Like this is how we're going to measure success and

how we're going to measure success and and is it the right one or do you have

and is it the right one or do you have to do some course correction when you do

to do some course correction when you do a roll out?

a roll out? So I think this is just where we're at

So I think this is just where we're at in our current stage is there's always

in our current stage is there's always going to be a bit of course correction

going to be a bit of course correction when you're earlier on and the product

when you're earlier on and the product hasn't matured. However,

hasn't matured. However, the bottom line that we have to deliver

the bottom line that we have to deliver is it's dynamic, but it you can simplify

is it's dynamic, but it you can simplify it down to whatever the mind is

it down to whatever the mind is currently doing, right? And I think that

currently doing, right? And I think that sort of speaks to the industry

sort of speaks to the industry holistically is that minds don't really

holistically is that minds don't really like change. But going a level deeper

like change. But going a level deeper there, minds don't like the possibility

there, minds don't like the possibility that that change could go down instead

that that change could go down instead of up, right?

of up, right? And for

And for mine specifically, like as long as

mine specifically, like as long as you're doing the same thing that you

you're doing the same thing that you were doing yesterday, you're doing that

were doing yesterday, you're doing that today, and you know you're going to do

today, and you know you're going to do that tomorrow, that is the best case

that tomorrow, that is the best case scenario, right? And so that's how we

scenario, right? And so that's how we gauge and that's how we let's say

gauge and that's how we let's say measure what our uh what our product is

measure what our uh what our product is capable of delivering when it hits the

capable of delivering when it hits the field.

field. Right? So just shifting into that that

Right? So just shifting into that that topic which is like the company you're

topic which is like the company you're building which is in robotics. Um you're

building which is in robotics. Um you're deploying an industrial sites uh your

deploying an industrial sites uh your your customers have equipment worth like

your customers have equipment worth like millions of dollars um likely like

millions of dollars um likely like custom made for their operation. um what

custom made for their operation. um what have you learned like what has that

have you learned like what has that taught you about the difference as you

taught you about the difference as you mentioned between building software

mentioned between building software versus building a physical world company

versus building a physical world company that has software injected into its

that has software injected into its product line?

product line? So like yeah I mean I' I've worked on

So like yeah I mean I' I've worked on software in the past and the iteration

software in the past and the iteration speed is absolutely psycho. I mean you

speed is absolutely psycho. I mean you can crank out eight nine versions of the

can crank out eight nine versions of the same thing over the course of a day and

same thing over the course of a day and the cost to iterate is very small. the

the cost to iterate is very small. the iteration cost when you are doing

iteration cost when you are doing hardware is at least you know two orders

hardware is at least you know two orders of magnitude if not more higher than it

of magnitude if not more higher than it is for software right and that's in like

is for software right and that's in like best case scenario um when you compound

best case scenario um when you compound that order of magnitude increase in cost

that order of magnitude increase in cost with the

with the um remote nature of mining it compounds

um remote nature of mining it compounds the complexity and the amount of

the complexity and the amount of preparation work involved you have to be

preparation work involved you have to be extremely precise with what it is you

extremely precise with what it is you do. And in fact, Ursa has almost

do. And in fact, Ursa has almost entirely over the past 6 months like or

entirely over the past 6 months like or not even six month like four months like

not even six month like four months like really just shifted on nailing the

really just shifted on nailing the hardware. The hardware is the constraint

hardware. The hardware is the constraint and the hardware is the thing that you

and the hardware is the thing that you have to get right. The software is stuff

have to get right. The software is stuff that you can work around and get quite

that you can work around and get quite flexible and creative with

flexible and creative with implementation wise. The hardware is

implementation wise. The hardware is something that takes hard manh hours to

something that takes hard manh hours to build, implement, and iterate on. And so

build, implement, and iterate on. And so for us, I think it was two things. It

for us, I think it was two things. It was one, how do we close that iteration

was one, how do we close that iteration loop to be as fast as possible, which

loop to be as fast as possible, which also reduces your cost because you have

also reduces your cost because you have a fixed cost you're paying per day to

a fixed cost you're paying per day to run the company. But two, how do you

run the company. But two, how do you let's say abstract the hardware to such

let's say abstract the hardware to such a degree where you can facilitate

a degree where you can facilitate realworld let's say compatibility

realworld let's say compatibility inhibitors, right? And I'll give you a

inhibitors, right? And I'll give you a concrete example of what I mean by that.

concrete example of what I mean by that. two given Caterpillar equipment uh

two given Caterpillar equipment uh equipment models, right? Let's say like

equipment models, right? Let's say like I don't know the 988 which is a wheeled

I don't know the 988 which is a wheeled front loader. There are subtle nuances

front loader. There are subtle nuances in the shape and the form factor between

in the shape and the form factor between the 998 and the 998K and the 9998 or

the 998 and the 998K and the 9998 or sorry the 988K and that was from 2017

sorry the 988K and that was from 2017 and the 98K from 2020. There are

and the 98K from 2020. There are differences within those

differences within those and that forces you as a you know like

and that forces you as a you know like especially what we're doing right we're

especially what we're doing right we're building on top of these things. It

building on top of these things. It forces us to distill the entirety of the

forces us to distill the entirety of the hardware stack down to its atomic bits.

hardware stack down to its atomic bits. So that way it's modular enough to be

So that way it's modular enough to be compatible with without a variety of

compatible with without a variety of pieces of equipment without needing to

pieces of equipment without needing to go through the arduous design

go through the arduous design implementation of a specific thing

implementation of a specific thing designed for a specific machine. I don't

designed for a specific machine. I don't believe in that approach. I mean I there

believe in that approach. I mean I there there are camps that do. Some folks

there are camps that do. Some folks believe that the best way to do it is to

believe that the best way to do it is to design like a very specific fit for a

design like a very specific fit for a very specific model because of the life

very specific model because of the life cycle of that machine that's out there.

cycle of that machine that's out there. It's going to exist for 20 years, but

It's going to exist for 20 years, but we're in an age where scale is key and

we're in an age where scale is key and being able to scale as a small stage

being able to scale as a small stage company, I think, uh, is critical, which

company, I think, uh, is critical, which is why we decided to go down that atomic

is why we decided to go down that atomic route. So we broke down our entire

route. So we broke down our entire hardware stack down into basically just

hardware stack down into basically just a set of critical things that we need

a set of critical things that we need and we designed them in a manner to be

and we designed them in a manner to be extremely flexible across a variety of

extremely flexible across a variety of pieces. So you know that's I would say

pieces. So you know that's I would say something we're quite proud of at this

something we're quite proud of at this point. So

point. So yeah I mean I think that's a a

yeah I mean I think that's a a phenomenal advantage uh given like you

phenomenal advantage uh given like you said equipment can break down right like

said equipment can break down right like that's one and if the spec is off you

that's one and if the spec is off you don't have the way to to adjust. Um, so

don't have the way to to adjust. Um, so I don't expect you to reveal how you did

I don't expect you to reveal how you did that, but kudos to you and your team.

that, but kudos to you and your team. That's that's really cool.

That's that's really cool. Yeah, there's a let's just we we're

Yeah, there's a let's just we we're we're lucky enough to have a very good

we're lucky enough to have a very good um say network of folks who are willing

um say network of folks who are willing to let us, you know, collect data, if

to let us, you know, collect data, if you will, on how to solve these kinds

you will, on how to solve these kinds of, you know, hardware problems.

of, you know, hardware problems. And and and speaking of that, just

And and and speaking of that, just around company building, like what's

around company building, like what's your take on where a founding team

your take on where a founding team should draw a line? um between something

should draw a line? um between something that needs to learn and own internally

that needs to learn and own internally versus bringing in a a specialist just

versus bringing in a a specialist just to accelerate an initiative.

to accelerate an initiative. I'm actually of the belief that

I'm actually of the belief that generalists are exceptional. Let's say

generalists are exceptional. Let's say earliest like earliest stage hires. Um

earliest like earliest stage hires. Um they are the or I should say they have

they are the or I should say they have the potential to be the best let's say

the potential to be the best let's say leaders as you scale the company and

leaders as you scale the company and need other folks to be able to oversee

need other folks to be able to oversee let's say certain engineering

let's say certain engineering initiatives, right? or things that

initiatives, right? or things that you're building and working on, right?

you're building and working on, right? But at the same time, specialists, and I

But at the same time, specialists, and I think this is really, you know, this

think this is really, you know, this really varies in a case- by case basis

really varies in a case- by case basis depending on the industry. You do need

depending on the industry. You do need specialists, too, because there are some

specialists, too, because there are some domains out there that are extremely

domains out there that are extremely niche, and there are, you know, domains

niche, and there are, you know, domains within those subdomains that um even LLM

within those subdomains that um even LLM today can they get like 70 to 70%

today can they get like 70 to 70% correct, but there are a lot of

correct, but there are a lot of misumptions there. So, you need you need

misumptions there. So, you need you need folks that actually have done the work.

folks that actually have done the work. And you know, I think there's a I think

And you know, I think there's a I think there's a balance, but it really depends

there's a balance, but it really depends on the industry that you're in.

on the industry that you're in. So So for you, um, what's been one of

So So for you, um, what's been one of the hardest capabilities to hire from as

the hardest capabilities to hire from as you're building your your building Ursa

you're building your your building Ursa mining? Um, is it robotics, mining,

mining? Um, is it robotics, mining, intuition, or like finding a hybrid that

intuition, or like finding a hybrid that can bridge the worlds that you work in?

can bridge the worlds that you work in? It's actually none of those.

It's actually none of those. Okay. It's finding someone or I should

Okay. It's finding someone or I should say finding team members that have the

say finding team members that have the critical eye for determining what is

critical eye for determining what is important. It is very difficult to

important. It is very difficult to distinguish between what is important

distinguish between what is important and what is not. And um when you overlay

and what is not. And um when you overlay that on a ven diagram of things you need

that on a ven diagram of things you need an ideal hireer to have, it drastically

an ideal hireer to have, it drastically narrows the talent pool. And when you

narrows the talent pool. And when you look and you find folks like that, you

look and you find folks like that, you actually find they are typically the

actually find they are typically the most high agency, the most likely to be

most high agency, the most likely to be founding companies of their own in a

founding companies of their own in a given time. And um you know, I like to

given time. And um you know, I like to say that I have a good eye for that sort

say that I have a good eye for that sort of thing, but it's very challenging to

of thing, but it's very challenging to repeat that formula and continuously

repeat that formula and continuously find folks like that. And if it's a

find folks like that. And if it's a skill set that someone has and they

skill set that someone has and they happen to be listening to it, if they

happen to be listening to it, if they really understand what is important,

really understand what is important, they're they're going to be able to

they're they're going to be able to build and implement virtually anything

build and implement virtually anything in the physical world. As you know, when

in the physical world. As you know, when you're in software land, you can

you're in software land, you can spitball a million ideas and it's okay

spitball a million ideas and it's okay to be messy.

to be messy. So, you're a very strong [clears throat]

So, you're a very strong [clears throat] believer in the generalist T-shaped

believer in the generalist T-shaped strong contributor. It sounds like

strong contributor. It sounds like generalist T-shaped strong contributor.

generalist T-shaped strong contributor. I would say generalists are good that

I would say generalists are good that because they can traverse between

because they can traverse between different let's say different

different let's say different conversations,

conversations, right?

right? Um or and this is mainly for us like we

Um or and this is mainly for us like we do need some specialists, right? And in

do need some specialists, right? And in fact, the ratio of generalist to

fact, the ratio of generalist to specialist is actually skewed in favor

specialist is actually skewed in favor of specialists. Um but it but it is

of specialists. Um but it but it is important to have generalists on board

important to have generalists on board as well to be able to traverse and you

as well to be able to traverse and you know do a lot of the micromanaging that

know do a lot of the micromanaging that sometimes I'm unccapable of doing

sometimes I'm unccapable of doing right that makes I mean like you said

right that makes I mean like you said balance and that's it's hard to strike

balance and that's it's hard to strike but it makes sense where you're where

but it makes sense where you're where you're going. Um, and if if Ursa

you're going. Um, and if if Ursa succeeds, uh, what do you think

succeeds, uh, what do you think dramatically changes about mining?

dramatically changes about mining? Rather, when it succeeds, let me change

Rather, when it succeeds, let me change the word.

the word. It's an inevitability, right? The

It's an inevitability, right? The question question that I pose to people

question question that I pose to people is,

is, you know, first off, have you ever seen

you know, first off, have you ever seen the fifth Star Wars movie?

the fifth Star Wars movie? The Empire Strikes Back. So, you know

The Empire Strikes Back. So, you know the hot face scene over there where

the hot face scene over there where they're running around inside and they

they're running around inside and they see that blue hologram that's up there

see that blue hologram that's up there in the middle and it shows like a real

in the middle and it shows like a real time view of the machines and the where

time view of the machines and the where the troops are out in the field running

the troops are out in the field running around and stuff and yet they are you

around and stuff and yet they are you know safely inside of the base you know

know safely inside of the base you know albeit still on the same sites but in

albeit still on the same sites but in theory that could be remote for me and

theory that could be remote for me and the vision that I have is mines have the

the vision that I have is mines have the capacity to run in a very similar manner

capacity to run in a very similar manner you can have a team that's entirely

you can have a team that's entirely remote that has complete visibility over

remote that has complete visibility over the the uh the the let's say like the

the the uh the the let's say like the massive system that is a mine and they

massive system that is a mine and they can zoom in with ultra high level of

can zoom in with ultra high level of precision into any given process or

precision into any given process or let's say step from the moment or is

let's say step from the moment or is leaving the pit to the moment it hits

leaving the pit to the moment it hits the plant and beyond and when it

the plant and beyond and when it converts into something you know like

converts into something you know like slightly more refined right it can

slightly more refined right it can extend to the exploration like there are

extend to the exploration like there are so many different ways in which

so many different ways in which overlaying all of the different say

overlaying all of the different say department skill sets into a single

department skill sets into a single interface can drastically improve the

interface can drastically improve the efficiency and the productivity of a

efficiency and the productivity of a given mining team. And I think that if

given mining team. And I think that if you extrapolate out far enough, the

you extrapolate out far enough, the sizes of these teams, the the the teams

sizes of these teams, the the the teams of of folks who are responsible for for

of of folks who are responsible for for producing the metals that we use today

producing the metals that we use today are going to be a lot smaller and a lot

are going to be a lot smaller and a lot more specialized.

more specialized. And to to your earlier point, perhaps

And to to your earlier point, perhaps more distributed, if you can pull off

more distributed, if you can pull off the the concept of these modular mines.

the the concept of these modular mines. Yes, I do think that um you know that

Yes, I do think that um you know that that goes a little deep into the

that goes a little deep into the playbook, but yes,

playbook, but yes, I got you. We'll we'll we'll leave it to

I got you. We'll we'll we'll leave it to that. Um just to to move into uh like a

that. Um just to to move into uh like a rapid fire close, I'm just going to ask

rapid fire close, I'm just going to ask you three questions. The first one is uh

you three questions. The first one is uh which business or technology leader has

which business or technology leader has shaped how you think about building Ursa

shaped how you think about building Ursa mining and why?

mining and why? Travis Kalanick. And this was long

Travis Kalanick. And this was long before he even started cloud kitchens.

before he even started cloud kitchens. Um, okay. This was while he was still at

Um, okay. This was while he was still at Uber. I loved reading the uh press

Uber. I loved reading the uh press releases. I saw that they were negative,

releases. I saw that they were negative, but I didn't really believe in much of

but I didn't really believe in much of that. Um, around the culture that he was

that. Um, around the culture that he was building where it was really like a

building where it was really like a deeply rooted sort of sense of

deeply rooted sort of sense of camaraderie and competitive, you know,

camaraderie and competitive, you know, competitiveness to expand and expand and

competitiveness to expand and expand and expand, right? And they had this

expand, right? And they had this playbook, man, that was absolutely

playbook, man, that was absolutely brilliant. And I think that in many ways

brilliant. And I think that in many ways that was very formative for me at least

that was very formative for me at least as far as how I look at expanding and

as far as how I look at expanding and sort of, you know, taking over an entire

sort of, you know, taking over an entire market seemingly overnight.

market seemingly overnight. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's fair to

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's fair to describe his some of his methods as a

describe his some of his methods as a force of nature. So, I think that's a

force of nature. So, I think that's a really good one based on what you're

really good one based on what you're building. Um, and when you're not

building. Um, and when you're not thinking about uh autonomous minds, what

thinking about uh autonomous minds, what quiets your mind?

quiets your mind? Quiets. Um, today's reading reading

Quiets. Um, today's reading reading actually I really like understanding

actually I really like understanding um in learning about uh sources of uh

um in learning about uh sources of uh let's say sociopolitical you know

let's say sociopolitical you know conflict themes right it's like why are

conflict themes right it's like why are why are why do people disagree over

why are why do people disagree over certain subject matters and why are they

certain subject matters and why are they so touchy and so I think uh one thing

so touchy and so I think uh one thing that I really enjoy doing is you know

that I really enjoy doing is you know reading on you know like for instance

reading on you know like for instance like economic policies and different

like economic policies and different frameworks right Marxism Tunisian

frameworks right Marxism Tunisian economics um you know reading about

economics um you know reading about Alexander Hamilton and you the idea of

Alexander Hamilton and you the idea of the Federal Reserve from the treasury.

the Federal Reserve from the treasury. You know, I think uh a lot of these

You know, I think uh a lot of these systems, they're they're essentially

systems, they're they're essentially different philosophies and different

different philosophies and different outlooks and how to run a cohesive

outlooks and how to run a cohesive society. And so, I think that

society. And so, I think that uh you know, when I fill my head up with

uh you know, when I fill my head up with enough ideas from reading some excerpts

enough ideas from reading some excerpts from some of those books out there on

from some of those books out there on those guys, um it definitely can quiet

those guys, um it definitely can quiet the uh the thoughts of the day-to-day.

the uh the thoughts of the day-to-day. I mean, that's fant I think. And do you

I mean, that's fant I think. And do you read uh like uh physical books, audio

read uh like uh physical books, audio books or physical books? Okay.

books or physical books? Okay. Physical books. I have a Kindle and I

Physical books. I have a Kindle and I find it useful for travel, but I always

find it useful for travel, but I always try to, you know, bring like at least

try to, you know, bring like at least one physical uh uh book in my bag along

one physical uh uh book in my bag along with a Kindle. So, that's like sort of

with a Kindle. So, that's like sort of my go-to book. I like I like I like

my go-to book. I like I like I like physical things. And I think that

physical things. And I think that there's there's a certain tactile, you

there's there's a certain tactile, you know, aspect to holding a book and

know, aspect to holding a book and flipping page by page um that is, you

flipping page by page um that is, you know, irreplaceable.

know, irreplaceable. Agreed. And and and lost. A lot of folks

Agreed. And and and lost. A lot of folks do not do that anymore. So, that's cool

do not do that anymore. So, that's cool to hear. Um, and you're working on

to hear. Um, and you're working on something that will take uh like there's

something that will take uh like there's a long time for adoption um and moving

a long time for adoption um and moving over like a span of years before it's

over like a span of years before it's fully realized. Uh, what does success

fully realized. Uh, what does success look like for you personally?

look like for you personally? Success for me is

Success for me is never it's it's it's always been about

never it's it's it's always been about just improving the day-to-day quality of

just improving the day-to-day quality of the lives of the folks that are using

the lives of the folks that are using our things. Nothing brings you more joy

our things. Nothing brings you more joy than receiving a an overwhelmingly

than receiving a an overwhelmingly positive, you know, review of what it is

positive, you know, review of what it is that we're doing. Um, it is rewarding

that we're doing. Um, it is rewarding because those are the people that we do

because those are the people that we do it for. You know, I mean, I I I say this

it for. You know, I mean, I I I say this often, but what we are doing is the

often, but what we are doing is the reason why some families will not have

reason why some families will not have to suddenly be eating dinner with one

to suddenly be eating dinner with one less parent at the table.

less parent at the table. So, pe people are a driving force for

So, pe people are a driving force for you. Like the

you. Like the people are a driving force. Yeah. No

people are a driving force. Yeah. No people, it's the people, right? It's the

people, it's the people, right? It's the safety. It's the quality of life

safety. It's the quality of life improvements. It's the ways that we are

improvements. It's the ways that we are impacting their day-to-day because when

impacting their day-to-day because when you really dive deep in under the hood

you really dive deep in under the hood of any given industry, there's a whole

of any given industry, there's a whole subindustry of people you never hear

subindustry of people you never hear about. And those are the real workers

about. And those are the real workers and those people. I mean, I know it

and those people. I mean, I know it sounds so cliche, man, but it is true.

sounds so cliche, man, but it is true. Those guys are the ones who are making

Those guys are the ones who are making all of this world around us even

all of this world around us even possible,

possible, right?

right? Yeah. Well, cliche or not, it's true.

Yeah. Well, cliche or not, it's true. So, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

So, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. True.

True. True. Um, okay, Yoan, that that that's a

True. Um, okay, Yoan, that that that's a wrap. I mean, this is great. I I really

wrap. I mean, this is great. I I really enjoyed speaking with you today.

enjoyed speaking with you today. No, man. No, likewise. I No, it's uh

No, man. No, likewise. I No, it's uh it's great to be here and uh you know, I

it's great to be here and uh you know, I really appreciate you taking the time to

really appreciate you taking the time to uh you know, hop on and uh humor me. You

uh you know, hop on and uh humor me. You know, it's a good it's always a good

know, it's a good it's always a good time to talk.

time to talk. Of course. I learned a lot, so I

Of course. I learned a lot, so I appreciate it.

appreciate it. Behind the

Behind the [music] behind the

whole thing. [music]

Yeah, we build we build we build it real

Yeah, we build we build we build it real behind [music] the