When AI Makes Everything the Same, Brand Becomes the Moat

Behind the code.

Behind [music] the code.

Behind [music] the code. That's where the future grows.

That's where the future grows. Welcome to Behind the Code, brought to

Welcome to Behind the Code, brought to you by Atomic Build. My name is Emit and

you by Atomic Build. My name is Emit and today we have Caitlyn, the CMO of Blazil

today we have Caitlyn, the CMO of Blazil joining us. I'm super excited. Caitlyn,

joining us. I'm super excited. Caitlyn, if you don't mind giving us an intro

if you don't mind giving us an intro about yourself.

about yourself. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. So, I'm

Yeah, I'm excited to be here. So, I'm Caitlyn, CMO at Blazil. I'm a marketing

Caitlyn, CMO at Blazil. I'm a marketing generalist but really a content marketer

generalist but really a content marketer at heart. So what that means is I love

at heart. So what that means is I love storytelling. I've always used content

storytelling. I've always used content as a way to grow companies. So the first

as a way to grow companies. So the first company I worked at, I grew the YouTube

company I worked at, I grew the YouTube channel to 120 million views. I went on

channel to 120 million views. I went on to found my own startup where again I

to found my own startup where again I used content to drive tons of organic

used content to drive tons of organic inbound. So I was generating, you know,

inbound. So I was generating, you know, hundreds of thousands of website visits

hundreds of thousands of website visits through articles. And now the content

through articles. And now the content that I'm focused on predominantly is

that I'm focused on predominantly is LinkedIn and how do you create LinkedIn

LinkedIn and how do you create LinkedIn content to again drive awareness for

content to again drive awareness for your company pipeline build trust at

your company pipeline build trust at scale kind of all those great things.

scale kind of all those great things. Amazing. Just before I get into my first

Amazing. Just before I get into my first question, I want to congratulate you on

question, I want to congratulate you on your campaign to get Ember as the name

your campaign to get Ember as the name for [laughter]

for [laughter] Blazel's AI agent. That that that's

Blazel's AI agent. That that that's awesome. That was a very well uh

awesome. That was a very well uh constructed campaign and you ran it

constructed campaign and you ran it pretty clean. So congrats.

pretty clean. So congrats. I appreciate that. Yeah, we do lots of

I appreciate that. Yeah, we do lots of fun joke type stuff on LinkedIn. So, I

fun joke type stuff on LinkedIn. So, I feel like there's a lot of people that

feel like there's a lot of people that are on like the inside jokes that we

are on like the inside jokes that we pull and we try to keep it fun and kind

pull and we try to keep it fun and kind of light-hearted.

of light-hearted. Yeah, it's very refreshing because

Yeah, it's very refreshing because LinkedIn can become a bit boring and

LinkedIn can become a bit boring and dry. So, I I appreciate that quite a

dry. So, I I appreciate that quite a bit. The the funny thing though, so for

bit. The the funny thing though, so for those of people who didn't know, we were

those of people who didn't know, we were trying to figure out what to call our

trying to figure out what to call our GTM agent and our CEO and I had

GTM agent and our CEO and I had differing opinions about what the name

differing opinions about what the name should be. And so we did these like we

should be. And so we did these like we did like a funny parody office style

did like a funny parody office style skit on what to name what to name our

skit on what to name what to name our agent and kind of documented it. But all

agent and kind of documented it. But all of the content we create, usually

of the content we create, usually there's some kernel of truth to what's

there's some kernel of truth to what's happening there. And I think that's part

happening there. And I think that's part of what makes the story funny and

of what makes the story funny and interesting for people is like they

interesting for people is like they could actually see a CMO and a CEO

could actually see a CMO and a CEO fighting over the name of a GTM agent.

fighting over the name of a GTM agent. Yeah. No, no, definitely. I think the

Yeah. No, no, definitely. I think the lens in which every person sees the

lens in which every person sees the world is so different and I think at

world is so different and I think at least typically the CMO is looked at as

least typically the CMO is looked at as someone who has like the oracle of

someone who has like the oracle of creativity. So I mean and then the CEO

creativity. So I mean and then the CEO of course has an internal passion of

of course has an internal passion of what everything should be pushed named.

what everything should be pushed named. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. So, so Caitlyn, you've had this

Right. So, so Caitlyn, you've had this really great career across consumer

really great career across consumer products, building a marketplace. You've

products, building a marketplace. You've led corporate strategy across different

led corporate strategy across different organizations. What is one truth about

organizations. What is one truth about marketing that kept repeating itself out

marketing that kept repeating itself out of all those experiences you had?

of all those experiences you had? I think marketing is not about tricking

I think marketing is not about tricking people into taking some action or

people into taking some action or decision. Great marketing just

decision. Great marketing just reinforces when you have a really good

reinforces when you have a really good product. And so it's about like in my my

product. And so it's about like in my my mind marketing is about being able to

mind marketing is about being able to build awareness and show off that you

build awareness and show off that you have this incredible asset, service,

have this incredible asset, service, product that people can take advantage

product that people can take advantage of but they don't know about. It's not

of but they don't know about. It's not about tricking people to make some

about tricking people to make some decision or tricking people to do

decision or tricking people to do something that's not in their best

something that's not in their best interest. It's about aligning great

interest. It's about aligning great products with audience.

products with audience. Right. So so the marketing is extracted

Right. So so the marketing is extracted from the product, not the other way

from the product, not the other way around.

around. Yeah. I mean, I think you could have the

Yeah. I mean, I think you could have the best marketing in the world and if you

best marketing in the world and if you have a crappy product, it didn't do you

have a crappy product, it didn't do you any good. You know, it has to start with

any good. You know, it has to start with I I think the magic synergy here is I

I I think the magic synergy here is I think incredible product, incredible

think incredible product, incredible marketing. And within incredible

marketing. And within incredible marketing, I look at do you have

marketing, I look at do you have distribution? Can you reach new people?

distribution? Can you reach new people? And do you have a strong brand? When you

And do you have a strong brand? When you reach people, can you build trust? Can

reach people, can you build trust? Can you connect with them? Can you build

you connect with them? Can you build relationships with them? If you have all

relationships with them? If you have all that and you have a great product then

that and you have a great product then like that's the winning combo in my

like that's the winning combo in my book.

book. Right. Right. And do you think now like

Right. Right. And do you think now like in today's not just today but for a

in today's not just today but for a while now do you think distribution has

while now do you think distribution has been the determining factor if like

been the determining factor if like companies actually break through?

companies actually break through? So if we looked like my answer has

So if we looked like my answer has shifted over time. If you had asked me

shifted over time. If you had asked me that question in 2020 I would have said

that question in 2020 I would have said no distribution is not the core mode. I

no distribution is not the core mode. I think at that point in time tech modes

think at that point in time tech modes were still huge advantages companies

were still huge advantages companies could hold and what's happened in the

could hold and what's happened in the age of AI is those tech modes have

age of AI is those tech modes have compressed and instead of you know you

compressed and instead of you know you build you ship some new feature you ship

build you ship some new feature you ship some new product you used to have a tech

some new product you used to have a tech mode that was sustainable over 18 months

mode that was sustainable over 18 months or 2 years or 5 years or whatever it

or 2 years or 5 years or whatever it would take for competitors to kind of

would take for competitors to kind of replicate uh or kind of reverse engineer

replicate uh or kind of reverse engineer things that you had done and in the age

things that you had done and in the age of AI all of that has become incredibly

of AI all of that has become incredibly compressed now I think of tech modes in

compressed now I think of tech modes in weeks or months, which is not a durable

weeks or months, which is not a durable long-lasting moat. And so then you say,

long-lasting moat. And so then you say, okay, let's imagine that we're getting

okay, let's imagine that we're getting to this place of feature par, price par

to this place of feature par, price par where everything you have all these

where everything you have all these different competitors that do relatively

different competitors that do relatively the same thing. They work relatively the

the same thing. They work relatively the same way. They're priced in the same

same way. They're priced in the same kind of price taring. Then how do you

kind of price taring. Then how do you make decisions, right? Then that's where

make decisions, right? Then that's where distribution and brand really shine. And

distribution and brand really shine. And so I think you know maybe this is a very

so I think you know maybe this is a very self-s serving view but I feel like

self-s serving view but I feel like marketers are having their moment now

marketers are having their moment now right where companies are starting to

right where companies are starting to see the value of having and investing in

see the value of having and investing in a brand. And again I'm like I have never

a brand. And again I'm like I have never had big budgets. I have always been a

had big budgets. I have always been a really scrappy marketer that's needed to

really scrappy marketer that's needed to show the ROI on everything I've done. Uh

show the ROI on everything I've done. Uh and so I never thought I would be in

and so I never thought I would be in this place where I was saying like brand

this place where I was saying like brand is important, brand is important. I was

is important, brand is important. I was always like show me the numbers like I

always like show me the numbers like I want to see ROI. But I I I am completely

want to see ROI. But I I I am completely brought in now that brand is so critical

brought in now that brand is so critical in 2026 and I would not have said that

in 2026 and I would not have said that in 2020.

in 2020. Right. And back back to something you

Right. And back back to something you said, do do you think the distinction is

said, do do you think the distinction is because AI has an ability to make

because AI has an ability to make everything seem exactly the same. So

everything seem exactly the same. So like adding in like you said, marketing

like adding in like you said, marketing is having its moment. It's a judgment

is having its moment. It's a judgment layer, a creativity layer that you put

layer, a creativity layer that you put up front. Is that like one of the core

up front. Is that like one of the core ways you look at it?

ways you look at it? Absolutely. I think that it allows

Absolutely. I think that it allows everyone to kind of rise to the mean and

everyone to kind of rise to the mean and and it's kind of created this sea of

and it's kind of created this sea of sameness and that opens up, you know,

sameness and that opens up, you know, and people might lament that. I think

and people might lament that. I think it's freaking fantastic because it means

it's freaking fantastic because it means that if you're smart and you're

that if you're smart and you're strategic and you're creative, you are

strategic and you're creative, you are going to stand out. Like I think that is

going to stand out. Like I think that is part of why our LinkedIn content

part of why our LinkedIn content resonates so much with people and like

resonates so much with people and like the stories we're putting out resonate

the stories we're putting out resonate so much with people is because we're

so much with people is because we're doing like wacky weird things.

doing like wacky weird things. Yeah. You know, we're like buying

Yeah. You know, we're like buying billboards in Witchah, Kansas. We're

billboards in Witchah, Kansas. We're getting evicted out of our co-working

getting evicted out of our co-working space. We're arguing about what we name

space. We're arguing about what we name our GTM agent online publicly. Like,

our GTM agent online publicly. Like, we're doing all these kind of crazy

we're doing all these kind of crazy things. And it's all just an attention

things. And it's all just an attention play. It's a distribution play. It's a

play. It's a distribution play. It's a brand building play. And people really

brand building play. And people really love it. Like, my goal as a marketer is

love it. Like, my goal as a marketer is I want people to have a strong opinion

I want people to have a strong opinion about what we're doing. I almost don't

about what we're doing. I almost don't care if they have a strong opinion about

care if they have a strong opinion about whether it's good or bad. Like, I hope

whether it's good or bad. Like, I hope that they love it. And I think most

that they love it. And I think most people do, but I have had at least four

people do, but I have had at least four people online tell me that I should be

people online tell me that I should be fired. Like public rant about how

fired. Like public rant about how chaotic I am, how disjointed, how

chaotic I am, how disjointed, how horribly unprofessional I am, all these

horribly unprofessional I am, all these things. And I look at those messages

things. And I look at those messages that where they like are slandering me

that where they like are slandering me online and I go, great. I have elicited

online and I go, great. I have elicited a very passionate, strong response out

a very passionate, strong response out of a complete stranger. Mhm.

of a complete stranger. Mhm. And and and so I think the worst thing

And and and so I think the worst thing that could ever happen to you as a

that could ever happen to you as a marketer is you do something and just no

marketer is you do something and just no one cares. There's no reaction to what

one cares. There's no reaction to what you're doing. And with a lot of the

you're doing. And with a lot of the content that I see put out on AI, that's

content that I see put out on AI, that's what the output is is like people put

what the output is is like people put out this stuff and there's just no

out this stuff and there's just no reaction. It's just crickets.

reaction. It's just crickets. And so the opportunity is how do you

And so the opportunity is how do you stand out in all of that? How do you

stand out in all of that? How do you stand out when content has become

stand out when content has become commoditized? When it's never easier to

commoditized? When it's never easier to publish kind of mediocre things. Um,

publish kind of mediocre things. Um, that's that's the company's strategic

that's that's the company's strategic advantage,

advantage, right? Do do you think people are lured

right? Do do you think people are lured in by like the ease of creating

in by like the ease of creating something generic like this? It feels

something generic like this? It feels very safe. Do you think that's why we

very safe. Do you think that's why we see so much of it being posted so

see so much of it being posted so frequently?

frequently? Yeah. So, I saw some statistic. I can't

Yeah. So, I saw some statistic. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was

remember exactly what it was, but it was like there's 10 million more people

like there's 10 million more people posting this quarter than there were at

posting this quarter than there were at the beginning of the year. And that's

the beginning of the year. And that's that's AI content. And I think we've

that's AI content. And I think we've we've surpassed on the internet the

we've surpassed on the internet the place where there's actually more AI

place where there's actually more AI content being created than human content

content being created than human content being created.

being created. Right. Right.

Right. Right. And so yeah, people are just it's so

And so yeah, people are just it's so easy just and you we probably have all

easy just and you we probably have all experienced this like I have had I have

experienced this like I have had I have had and I saw someone complaining about

had and I saw someone complaining about this on LinkedIn uh this week where they

this on LinkedIn uh this week where they were saying I think we're going to have

were saying I think we're going to have to put guard rails around AI slop

to put guard rails around AI slop internally like in internal

internally like in internal communications within companies because

communications within companies because we've all had direct reports that have

we've all had direct reports that have sent us like pages and pages of AI

sent us like pages and pages of AI output and so I've had to tell all of

output and so I've had to tell all of our employees we are we literally create

our employees we are we literally create AI content for link LinkedIn like that

AI content for link LinkedIn like that is our core moat. We don't do AI slop. I

is our core moat. We don't do AI slop. I don't want anyone shipping AI slop

don't want anyone shipping AI slop internal to the company period. Like you

internal to the company period. Like you have to put thought and intention behind

have to put thought and intention behind what you're doing even in your internal

what you're doing even in your internal employee communications because I won't

employee communications because I won't read a 10-page AI slop generated report.

read a 10-page AI slop generated report. And so to answer your question in a

And so to answer your question in a roundabout way, yeah, I think it's

roundabout way, yeah, I think it's become very easy to create content. I

become very easy to create content. I think, you know, anyone has a chat GPT

think, you know, anyone has a chat GPT or a clawed account, but I think that

or a clawed account, but I think that there's real reputational damage to

there's real reputational damage to putting out bad content,

putting out bad content, AI slop or otherwise.

AI slop or otherwise. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly. And how how how long was the response

And how how how long was the response from those guardrails internally to when

from those guardrails internally to when your team bounced back? Like, did

your team bounced back? Like, did communication drop off like the 10 page?

communication drop off like the 10 page? No. No, it was more I mean, we we're

No. No, it was more I mean, we we're still a relatively small team, right?

still a relatively small team, right? So, it's it's pretty easy to say like,

So, it's it's pretty easy to say like, "Hey guys, like this isn't the format in

"Hey guys, like this isn't the format in which we're going to consume

which we're going to consume information."

information." You're putting a huge burden on your

You're putting a huge burden on your co-workers by asking them to consume all

co-workers by asking them to consume all of this when this could have been, you

of this when this could have been, you know, a couple line email

know, a couple line email or a quick 30-se secondond, you know,

or a quick 30-se secondond, you know, Slack huddle or something like that. We

Slack huddle or something like that. We don't need to send crazy long

don't need to send crazy long communication memos that are all AI

communication memos that are all AI generated internally.

generated internally. Yeah. No, I I I couldn't agree more. I

Yeah. No, I I I couldn't agree more. I could not agree more on that topic. Just

could not agree more on that topic. Just a lot, this is more outbound on on

a lot, this is more outbound on on LinkedIn. A lot of companies, they still

LinkedIn. A lot of companies, they still have it as the founders's responsibility

have it as the founders's responsibility to generate content to write and or

to generate content to write and or corporate marketing, but from what I've

corporate marketing, but from what I've seen with Blazil and just your general

seen with Blazil and just your general approach. There's like what do you think

approach. There's like what do you think is wrong with that model of of just the

is wrong with that model of of just the founder being the only

founder being the only there? There's nothing wrong with that

there? There's nothing wrong with that model. It just comes down to the

model. It just comes down to the founder, right? Like so we work with

founder, right? Like so we work with lots of companies where it's still early

lots of companies where it's still early stage and the founders it doesn't matter

stage and the founders it doesn't matter what stage you're at actually you could

what stage you're at actually you could have fortune 500 companies where the

have fortune 500 companies where the founders want to own and have their own

founders want to own and have their own voice and you could go all the way down

voice and you could go all the way down to single person startups and they feel

to single person startups and they feel very strongly and like their image is

very strongly and like their image is important to them and they want to

important to them and they want to control that. So I'm not sure that it's

control that. So I'm not sure that it's a stage thing so much as people just

a stage thing so much as people just have different preferences. We work with

have different preferences. We work with marketing teams that are, you know,

marketing teams that are, you know, there's a a head of content or a head of

there's a a head of content or a head of social or something like that and that

social or something like that and that person is managing the LinkedIn content

person is managing the LinkedIn content for, you know, all of seuite all the way

for, you know, all of seuite all the way down to an individual solo founder

down to an individual solo founder that's like, okay, I understand that

that's like, okay, I understand that this is important. I want to build in

this is important. I want to build in public. I want to get my name and

public. I want to get my name and company out there. I don't want to spend

company out there. I don't want to spend 10k on Google ads or meta every month to

10k on Google ads or meta every month to get there. I'm going to commit to like

get there. I'm going to commit to like cracking LinkedIn and making this a

cracking LinkedIn and making this a channel for myself. So, we see like the

channel for myself. So, we see like the full range of of folks.

full range of of folks. Do do you think like having multiple

Do do you think like having multiple credible indiv individuals from your

credible indiv individuals from your company, assuming you're more than a

company, assuming you're more than a team of like two or three, it has like a

team of like two or three, it has like a big impact on a company?

big impact on a company? Oh, 100%.

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, on the one hand, it's just more

I mean, on the one hand, it's just more reach, more eyeballs, more opportunity

reach, more eyeballs, more opportunity to take up space in the conversation.

to take up space in the conversation. But on the other, the strategy that I'm

But on the other, the strategy that I'm really into is, and like this is one of

really into is, and like this is one of the things we're doing, one of our

the things we're doing, one of our larger clients at Blazil, they have six

larger clients at Blazil, they have six executives that are all posting

executives that are all posting and each one of those executives has a

and each one of those executives has a different goal with their LinkedIn

different goal with their LinkedIn content. So, for example, if you were

content. So, for example, if you were setting this up, you could say, "Okay,

setting this up, you could say, "Okay, we're eyeing a series fundraising, you

we're eyeing a series fundraising, you know, series B raise, for example, and

know, series B raise, for example, and as the CEO, like I'm talking to

as the CEO, like I'm talking to potential investors, and that's the kind

potential investors, and that's the kind of content I'm putting out there on

of content I'm putting out there on LinkedIn. My CTO is focused on, you

LinkedIn. My CTO is focused on, you know, engineers as an ideal customer

know, engineers as an ideal customer persona." And so, they're putting out

persona." And so, they're putting out content that engineers, but we also have

content that engineers, but we also have a subset of our customers that are

a subset of our customers that are project managers. And so, we want to

project managers. And so, we want to talk to project managers. and this

talk to project managers. and this person internal to the company is going

person internal to the company is going to focus on project managers. So you

to focus on project managers. So you could actually align it where like

could actually align it where like LinkedIn works best if you're talking to

LinkedIn works best if you're talking to kind of a single persona type, right?

kind of a single persona type, right? And so like within my content, I talk to

And so like within my content, I talk to CMOs and marketing people. Zayn, our

CMOs and marketing people. Zayn, our CEO, he tends to talk to more of the

CEO, he tends to talk to more of the founders, CEOs, kind of VC crowd. And we

founders, CEOs, kind of VC crowd. And we have AEES on the team that have

have AEES on the team that have different strategies and are talking

different strategies and are talking about different facets. And so we have

about different facets. And so we have this like very wide coverage of all

this like very wide coverage of all these different types of people that are

these different types of people that are ultimately impactful to our business and

ultimately impactful to our business and each one of the profiles can tap and

each one of the profiles can tap and talk to a different subset. So I think

talk to a different subset. So I think it's a really powerful strategy. It's

it's a really powerful strategy. It's also, you know, you want you want to be

also, you know, you want you want to be able to build momentum and excitement

able to build momentum and excitement around what you're doing, right? And so

around what you're doing, right? And so if you're popping like if your company

if you're popping like if your company is popping up everywhere in the feed and

is popping up everywhere in the feed and people keep seeing the content like you

people keep seeing the content like you can create this like buzz and momentum

can create this like buzz and momentum and feeling behind what you're doing

and feeling behind what you're doing that's really hard to replicate with

that's really hard to replicate with like paid ads or you know inerson events

like paid ads or you know inerson events but how do you scale that and how are

but how do you scale that and how are you at inerson events every week and you

you at inerson events every week and you know I find LinkedIn is just such a

know I find LinkedIn is just such a lower lift to kind of get that awareness

lower lift to kind of get that awareness and hype around the company.

and hype around the company. Right. Right. And it's it's pretty high

Right. Right. And it's it's pretty high on people's scroll list right on their

on people's scroll list right on their phone. I think like morning, midday,

phone. I think like morning, midday, evening. So that makes a lot of sense.

evening. So that makes a lot of sense. So So one of the lessons would you say

So So one of the lessons would you say is like direct your content to like one

is like direct your content to like one or two personas, not not like a whole

or two personas, not not like a whole bunch.

bunch. Don't try to write to everyone. Think

Don't try to write to everyone. Think here's some here's some tips is like

here's some here's some tips is like here's what I tell our clients. I say,

here's what I tell our clients. I say, "Okay, I want you to imagine your ideal

"Okay, I want you to imagine your ideal customer in your head right now." And

customer in your head right now." And like picture that person. Picture what

like picture that person. Picture what that person looks like. Visualize them.

that person looks like. Visualize them. Don't just say like, "Oh, CMOS at series

Don't just say like, "Oh, CMOS at series B companies." Like, actually pick a a

B companies." Like, actually pick a a specific person and imagine that person

specific person and imagine that person in your mind. And now I want you to

in your mind. And now I want you to imagine that they've gone to your

imagine that they've gone to your LinkedIn profile and they've read two

LinkedIn profile and they've read two months worth of your content. What is it

months worth of your content. What is it that you would want them to understand

that you would want them to understand about you, about your company, about how

about you, about your company, about how you think strategically about things?

you think strategically about things? And use that as the foundation for your

And use that as the foundation for your content strategy. And when you're

content strategy. And when you're writing your post, imagine that person

writing your post, imagine that person in your head and say, "Is the bar is

in your head and say, "Is the bar is what I'm writing good enough for this

what I'm writing good enough for this person to think like, yes, this this

person to think like, yes, this this this Caitlyn clearly gets it, right?"

this Caitlyn clearly gets it, right?" And uh and if you do that, the bar for

And uh and if you do that, the bar for your content will just be so much

your content will just be so much higher. You're going to avoid some of

higher. You're going to avoid some of that like AI slop, but you're also going

that like AI slop, but you're also going to like the other thing I see people

to like the other thing I see people make mistake of is they post a lot of so

make mistake of is they post a lot of so what content. Like I read a post and I

what content. Like I read a post and I go, "So what?" like why should I care?

go, "So what?" like why should I care? My first manager absolutely beat this

My first manager absolutely beat this concept into me that's like what's in it

concept into me that's like what's in it for me. Like why do I care about what

for me. Like why do I care about what you have to say? And that's always stuck

you have to say? And that's always stuck with me. And so another kind of pro tip

with me. And so another kind of pro tip here is you can think about your content

here is you can think about your content as needing to do one of four things at a

as needing to do one of four things at a minimum. Is you either want to educate,

minimum. Is you either want to educate, you want to entertain, you want to

you want to entertain, you want to persuade, or you want to inspire. And if

persuade, or you want to inspire. And if your content can do at least one of

your content can do at least one of those things, you're going to avoid the

those things, you're going to avoid the so what. this was a waste of my time

so what. this was a waste of my time post category which is I see 80% of

post category which is I see 80% of LinkedIn content fall into that bucket.

LinkedIn content fall into that bucket. Right. Right. And I I guess it's also

Right. Right. And I I guess it's also difficult because no one's actually

difficult because no one's actually saying so what. It's just like in some

saying so what. It's just like in some of the maybe like the analytics you can

of the maybe like the analytics you can your post. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

your post. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Crickets are saying so what it's this is

Crickets are saying so what it's this is the amazing thing about LinkedIn is that

the amazing thing about LinkedIn is that you get real like this is a real sandbox

you get real like this is a real sandbox you get to play in. You get real- time

you get to play in. You get real- time feedback on whether your messaging lands

feedback on whether your messaging lands or not, whether people are interested in

or not, whether people are interested in the things you have to say. You either

the things you have to say. You either have a post pop off or you don't. And so

have a post pop off or you don't. And so many people like to blame the algorithm.

many people like to blame the algorithm. What's the algorithm of my reach down?

What's the algorithm of my reach down? It's like, or you just had a crappy

It's like, or you just had a crappy post. Like,

post. Like, yes, there are way more people posting

yes, there are way more people posting on LinkedIn than there were two years

on LinkedIn than there were two years ago. Like, yes, it is harder to be seen

ago. Like, yes, it is harder to be seen and to have distribution. Like, that's

and to have distribution. Like, that's the game everyone is fighting and

the game everyone is fighting and playing in. Like, don't whine about the

playing in. Like, don't whine about the game. like adapt your strategy, right?

game. like adapt your strategy, right? Like I have had posts that have like my

Like I have had posts that have like my best post had over 700. I'm almost at

best post had over 700. I'm almost at 800,000 impressions on that particular

800,000 impressions on that particular post. And then I have other posts that

post. And then I have other posts that do, you know, if I have a 5,000

do, you know, if I have a 5,000 impression post, I go, "Wow, that wasn't

impression post, I go, "Wow, that wasn't a good hook. I didn't pick that topic,

a good hook. I didn't pick that topic, right?" Like, it's on me, right? It's

right?" Like, it's on me, right? It's not on anyone else.

not on anyone else. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think like it's

Yeah. Yeah. And and I think like it's also relative like someone posting like

also relative like someone posting like getting to 5,000 is a climbing

getting to 5,000 is a climbing accomplishment. So I think that's also

accomplishment. So I think that's also something as someone who posts as well.

something as someone who posts as well. You have to also be okay with that as

You have to also be okay with that as that's part of the journey like you said

that's part of the journey like you said like that's the game we're in.

like that's the game we're in. 100%. I and this is where I think you

100%. I and this is where I think you know the big influencers they're sharing

know the big influencers they're sharing their stats. They're showing all these

their stats. They're showing all these huge numbers and people are going man

huge numbers and people are going man why didn't I hit the like why don't I

why didn't I hit the like why don't I have 10,000 followers? Why don't I have

have 10,000 followers? Why don't I have 50,000 followers? Like, why did my why

50,000 followers? Like, why did my why did my post? For some people, getting

did my post? For some people, getting a,000 impression reach is a great post.

a,000 impression reach is a great post. There's absolutely no shame in that. In

There's absolutely no shame in that. In fact, here's an example, and this is why

fact, here's an example, and this is why vanity metrics are actually really

vanity metrics are actually really stupid. I had a post where I was kind of

stupid. I had a post where I was kind of breaking down professional CEO profiles

breaking down professional CEO profiles on LinkedIn and how most of them were

on LinkedIn and how most of them were not optimized. And you think of a you

not optimized. And you think of a you think of a LinkedIn post as kind of like

think of a LinkedIn post as kind of like a mini landing page for your company.

a mini landing page for your company. And most of the people do a bad job

And most of the people do a bad job setting up those landing pages. And it

setting up those landing pages. And it would be it's kind of akin to if you had

would be it's kind of akin to if you had a website and you didn't have some kind

a website and you didn't have some kind of lead capture or ability to schedule a

of lead capture or ability to schedule a demo or or a lead magnet or something

demo or or a lead magnet or something like you wouldn't set up you wouldn't

like you wouldn't set up you wouldn't send traffic to a website that wasn't

send traffic to a website that wasn't set up yet. But people put all this

set up yet. But people put all this effort into content and then people come

effort into content and then people come to check out their profile and their

to check out their profile and their profile is not set up properly. So I had

profile is not set up properly. So I had a post about that about like, hey, this

a post about that about like, hey, this is so silly that people are doing this

is so silly that people are doing this and they're leaving all this on the

and they're leaving all this on the table and they're not. And I think the

table and they're not. And I think the post had 14 likes and god, I don't even

post had 14 likes and god, I don't even know the impression. I'm sure sub a

know the impression. I'm sure sub a thousand impressions. And I had the CEO

thousand impressions. And I had the CEO of a company that had raised over $300

of a company that had raised over $300 million send me a DM saying, "Hey, can

million send me a DM saying, "Hey, can you audit my profile?"

you audit my profile?" Nice.

Nice. Yeah,

Yeah, that's wonderful, right? Like that's the

that's wonderful, right? Like that's the outcome that I would want. Now I have

outcome that I would want. Now I have this direct communication. If I had just

this direct communication. If I had just sent that guy a message and said, "Hey,

sent that guy a message and said, "Hey, I can audit your LinkedIn profile." he

I can audit your LinkedIn profile." he said like he wouldn't have even

said like he wouldn't have even responded, right? So, you look at the

responded, right? So, you look at the public metrics and you go, "Oh man, like

public metrics and you go, "Oh man, like that post looks kind of embarrassing and

that post looks kind of embarrassing and didn't really get much attention." But

didn't really get much attention." But you also have to judge things by the

you also have to judge things by the outcomes. And so, don't compare yourself

outcomes. And so, don't compare yourself to other people. Don't It doesn't matter

to other people. Don't It doesn't matter what kind of impressions other people

what kind of impressions other people are posting. It's about the results that

are posting. It's about the results that your content is driving for yourself,

your content is driving for yourself, right? Yeah. No, I think you you nailed

right? Yeah. No, I think you you nailed it. And in terms So, that that seems

it. And in terms So, that that seems like a really strong signal. someone

like a really strong signal. someone reached out and said, "Can you directly

reached out and said, "Can you directly help me with the thing you posted

help me with the thing you posted about?" What are other signals in

about?" What are other signals in content that tells you you're actually

content that tells you you're actually influencing the right set of buyers or

influencing the right set of buyers or people that you want to go after as

people that you want to go after as someone on LinkedIn?

someone on LinkedIn? It's a great question. I have a few ways

It's a great question. I have a few ways I would answer that. One is just

I would answer that. One is just anecdotally. I hear from people a lot

anecdotally. I hear from people a lot like, "Oh, I loved this post." Or, "Oh,

like, "Oh, I loved this post." Or, "Oh, you guys, you know," or they hear in the

you guys, you know," or they hear in the comments, they're following the story.

comments, they're following the story. Like we just started the podcast and you

Like we just started the podcast and you said, "Oh, that GTM agent thing was so

said, "Oh, that GTM agent thing was so great." You are clearly following the

great." You are clearly following the story. That's a signal that I'm

story. That's a signal that I'm internalizing and I'm paying attention

internalizing and I'm paying attention to, right? And I'm saying like, "Okay,

to, right? And I'm saying like, "Okay, that's how I got on this podcast. That's

that's how I got on this podcast. That's how you heard about me. That's how we

how you heard about me. That's how we got connected. That's how we built a

got connected. That's how we built a relationship, right? So like check one

relationship, right? So like check one for content."

for content." I think the other thing is if you're

I think the other thing is if you're doing some kind of outbounding, you

doing some kind of outbounding, you could benchmark, you know, what

could benchmark, you know, what percentage of connection requests are

percentage of connection requests are accepting before you're starting to post

accepting before you're starting to post versus what percentage are accepting

versus what percentage are accepting now? Like, are you seeing an increase in

now? Like, are you seeing an increase in acceptance rates of connections just

acceptance rates of connections just because people are seeing your content

because people are seeing your content and they're liking what you're putting

and they're liking what you're putting out there and you have a certain layer

out there and you have a certain layer of trust and credibility to you. You

of trust and credibility to you. You know, if someone sends a connection

know, if someone sends a connection request and you don't know the person,

request and you don't know the person, but they seem kind of legitimate, you'll

but they seem kind of legitimate, you'll click over to the profile and you'll be

click over to the profile and you'll be like, "What do I think of this person?

like, "What do I think of this person? Is are they worth connecting with?"

Is are they worth connecting with?" Right? We all make those like internal

Right? We all make those like internal judgments in 2 seconds. Your content can

judgments in 2 seconds. Your content can help influence that. I think the other

help influence that. I think the other thing is one of my favorite things to to

thing is one of my favorite things to to recommend to people that I think so few

recommend to people that I think so few people do is you need to outbound on the

people do is you need to outbound on the signal that your content is generating

signal that your content is generating or have one of your AEES depending on

or have one of your AEES depending on the size of the company outbound on that

the size of the company outbound on that signal. So, like I love looking at

signal. So, like I love looking at people that viewed my profile because a

people that viewed my profile because a lot of times the executives that we work

lot of times the executives that we work with, they're not going to be in the

with, they're not going to be in the public comments. They're not going to be

public comments. They're not going to be commenting on lead magnets, whatever,

commenting on lead magnets, whatever, but they're going to go check out your

but they're going to go check out your profile. And so, if I look at the pro,

profile. And so, if I look at the pro, the people that are viewing my profile,

the people that are viewing my profile, a lot of it is the people I'm targeting,

a lot of it is the people I'm targeting, CMOs, heads of content, heads of

CMOs, heads of content, heads of marketing, whatever, that tells me that

marketing, whatever, that tells me that my content is reaching the right people.

my content is reaching the right people. And then when I reach out to those

And then when I reach out to those people, I'll get messages like I'll get

people, I'll get messages like I'll get messages like, "Oh my gosh, I saw that

messages like, "Oh my gosh, I saw that post that you did about blah blah blah."

post that you did about blah blah blah." Like it just it creates an environment

Like it just it creates an environment in which it's very easy to open up

in which it's very easy to open up conversations. And if you can open up

conversations. And if you can open up conversations, you can get people into

conversations, you can get people into demos,

demos, right? So it's not it's not like a

right? So it's not it's not like a linear path. You're looking at multiple

linear path. You're looking at multiple signals simultaneously. And some like

signals simultaneously. And some like you said, the anecdotal one is not one

you said, the anecdotal one is not one of the measurements that LinkedIn

of the measurements that LinkedIn offers, but it's a very strong one.

offers, but it's a very strong one. It's super important. I mean, yeah, we

It's super important. I mean, yeah, we had our CEO go to he's in a lot of kind

had our CEO go to he's in a lot of kind of like f exited founder uh groups and

of like f exited founder uh groups and he went to one of these networking

he went to one of these networking events the other night and there were a

events the other night and there were a handful of of people that he connected

handful of of people that he connected with and chatted with that were like,

with and chatted with that were like, "Oh my gosh, we follow your LinkedIn

"Oh my gosh, we follow your LinkedIn content." And to me, that's amazing

content." And to me, that's amazing because you want to talk about vanity

because you want to talk about vanity metrics, we get like sub 1,000 visits to

metrics, we get like sub 1,000 visits to our website every month. Like we have

our website every month. Like we have almost no website traffic. you know, the

almost no website traffic. you know, the website is is a relatively new domain

website is is a relatively new domain for us. We haven't invested in AEO or

for us. We haven't invested in AEO or SEO or kind of all these like we've got

SEO or kind of all these like we've got a barebones landing page. And uh so the

a barebones landing page. And uh so the fact that we're kind of this brand new,

fact that we're kind of this brand new, you know, relatively new startup, you

you know, relatively new startup, you know, one year old, don't get really any

know, one year old, don't get really any website traffic. We're not paying for

website traffic. We're not paying for paid like LinkedIn is the channel for

paid like LinkedIn is the channel for us. And when we go to networking events

us. And when we go to networking events and we meet people that have heard of us

and we meet people that have heard of us and know of us because of the LinkedIn

and know of us because of the LinkedIn content, that's another like anecdotal

content, that's another like anecdotal check mark I'm putting in my brain.

check mark I'm putting in my brain. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. I

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. I mean, there's they instantly have a no

mean, there's they instantly have a no one's going to remember like a bullet

one's going to remember like a bullet point on your website when you when you

point on your website when you when you first meet them. So, that's a really

first meet them. So, that's a really powerful like message when it comes to

powerful like message when it comes to content creation. Now wi-i with blazil

content creation. Now wi-i with blazil there's a lot of tools out there

there's a lot of tools out there including like you mentioned chat GBT

including like you mentioned chat GBT claude you can use it to try to create

claude you can use it to try to create AI content but h how do you create it

AI content but h how do you create it like where it's a like a genuine

like where it's a like a genuine marketing system instead of a writing

marketing system instead of a writing assistant like how did you figure that

assistant like how did you figure that formula out and don't tell me the trade

formula out and don't tell me the trade secret of course but just high level

secret of course but just high level I'm going to tell you all the trade

I'm going to tell you all the trade secrets you know it's it's still a work

secrets you know it's it's still a work in progress I mean we're constantly

in progress I mean we're constantly improving and iterating on the app every

improving and iterating on the app every single day we've spent hundreds of

single day we've spent hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars at

thousands if not millions of dollars at this point of fine-tuning LLMs to remove

this point of fine-tuning LLMs to remove AI slop to make sure that it doesn't

AI slop to make sure that it doesn't sound like the it's not X, it's Y,

sound like the it's not X, it's Y, everyone's quietly compounding their

everyone's quietly compounding their blah blah blah, it's fluffy like all the

blah blah blah, it's fluffy like all the words and things that like just tell you

words and things that like just tell you AI wrote this. We have spent so many

AI wrote this. We have spent so many marketing resource or engineering

marketing resource or engineering resources trying to extract all of that

resources trying to extract all of that out of the content we create. We are

out of the content we create. We are running AI evals on multiple models

running AI evals on multiple models every week testing. We pay attention to

every week testing. We pay attention to we actually surface of every post we

we actually surface of every post we create for clients. We create three

create for clients. We create three versions of that post and we pay

versions of that post and we pay attention to which version our clients

attention to which version our clients are choosing and each version is being

are choosing and each version is being created by a different LLM and the

created by a different LLM and the content engine that's creating that is

content engine that's creating that is kind of created in a slightly different

kind of created in a slightly different way. So one post would be we would look

way. So one post would be we would look at how emit you show up online and how

at how emit you show up online and how you sound and that post is going to be

you sound and that post is going to be most in your voice. And then another

most in your voice. And then another pipeline we're looking at is viral

pipeline we're looking at is viral formats on LinkedIn and what's worked

formats on LinkedIn and what's worked and we're actually going to create the

and we're actually going to create the post mimicking one of those viral

post mimicking one of those viral formats. And then the third way, you

formats. And then the third way, you know, we'd have a different strategy

know, we'd have a different strategy behind it and we pay attention to how

behind it and we pay attention to how all of these things are coming together,

all of these things are coming together, what people are choosing and try to kind

what people are choosing and try to kind of create this reinforcement loop. So,

of create this reinforcement loop. So, it's a never- ending process of

it's a never- ending process of improvement. We're always always working

improvement. We're always always working on it. And, you know, I think that's I I

on it. And, you know, I think that's I I I think that's the big differentiator of

I think that's the big differentiator of kind of what sets us apart from Claude

kind of what sets us apart from Claude or Chat GPT in terms of the content

or Chat GPT in terms of the content quality,

quality, right?

right? The other piece is that we have access

The other piece is that we have access to a lot of data that Claude or Chat GPT

to a lot of data that Claude or Chat GPT doesn't have. And so you can query

doesn't have. And so you can query within our system and say tell me about

within our system and say tell me about my LinkedIn post performance like what's

my LinkedIn post performance like what's working what's not working you know what

working what's not working you know what are like we surface leads within the

are like we surface leads within the platform right and so what what I

platform right and so what what I learned early on is that posting content

learned early on is that posting content is not enough to generate pipeline

is not enough to generate pipeline right

right is that if you really want to generate

is that if you really want to generate outcomes you have to have a strategy

outcomes you have to have a strategy that goes beyond just I'm going to post

that goes beyond just I'm going to post consistently twice a week you have to

consistently twice a week you have to you or someone on your team has to look

you or someone on your team has to look at what is the signal that's being

at what is the signal that's being generated by that content and how can I

generated by that content and how can I outreach to that signal. And so we've

outreach to that signal. And so we've built all of that into the platform

built all of that into the platform where we have CRM connections and

where we have CRM connections and integrations. We can enrich data that's

integrations. We can enrich data that's coming through your LinkedIn content. We

coming through your LinkedIn content. We can push that to your CRM. You can

can push that to your CRM. You can outbound off that content. And so I

outbound off that content. And so I think the system is much more powerful

think the system is much more powerful than kind of what you would get out of

than kind of what you would get out of the box with claude or chat GPT.

the box with claude or chat GPT. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean just what

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean just what you articulated it sounds like it and

you articulated it sounds like it and how has it impacted you personally just

how has it impacted you personally just like from the where it started and where

like from the where it started and where you are today just using it as a as a

you are today just using it as a as a user and someone also positioning it.

user and someone also positioning it. Well,

Well, I'll share uh I think this is probably

I'll share uh I think this is probably something that anyone in startup land

something that anyone in startup land can relate to.

can relate to. We have we started as an AI native

We have we started as an AI native agency and so we had our own AI that we

agency and so we had our own AI that we had built as an internal tool. We paired

had built as an internal tool. We paired that with kind of journalists and

that with kind of journalists and content writers and we charge $3,500 a

content writers and we charge $3,500 a seat to write for people and we'd

seat to write for people and we'd interview them once a month and put

interview them once a month and put their content together and we kind of

their content together and we kind of came up with their strategy and whatnot.

came up with their strategy and whatnot. And that model had product or had

And that model had product or had message market fit as in we grew very

message market fit as in we grew very quickly. We took the company to it was I

quickly. We took the company to it was I don't know I think in eight months we

don't know I think in eight months we were above 1.5 million AR but it became

were above 1.5 million AR but it became clear that we didn't have like to the

clear that we didn't have like to the point that I just made earlier about how

point that I just made earlier about how it's not enough to just post. You have

it's not enough to just post. You have to be able to do these other things. We

to be able to do these other things. We weren't surfacing these other things

weren't surfacing these other things that people needed to do. And so people

that people needed to do. And so people weren't seeing the outcomes that we

weren't seeing the outcomes that we wanted them to see that we knew were

wanted them to see that we knew were possible for them to see. And so we took

possible for them to see. And so we took our model back down to zero and we've

our model back down to zero and we've rebuilt it from the ground up. And now

rebuilt it from the ground up. And now instead of charging $3,500 for the

instead of charging $3,500 for the service, we charge $200 for the service.

service, we charge $200 for the service. And I think we're giving 10x the value.

And I think we're giving 10x the value. And so there has been a lot of lessons

And so there has been a lot of lessons learned along the way on what the right

learned along the way on what the right strategic formula is, how content and

strategic formula is, how content and sales kind of pair together, how to make

sales kind of pair together, how to make sure you have the right attributions,

sure you have the right attributions, how all that connects into your CRM,

how all that connects into your CRM, kind of all these different pieces that

kind of all these different pieces that go together. And and we'll, like I said,

go together. And and we'll, like I said, it's it's ever evolving. like we're

it's it's ever evolving. like we're always shipping new stuff. We're we're

always shipping new stuff. We're we're dog fooding our own product. And so I'm

dog fooding our own product. And so I'm in the app every day looking at it,

in the app every day looking at it, testing it, playing with things, and and

testing it, playing with things, and and you know, trying to have fun with it. I

you know, trying to have fun with it. I think people put a lot of pressure on

think people put a lot of pressure on themselves like, "Okay, I'm going to

themselves like, "Okay, I'm going to show up and I'm going to make LinkedIn

show up and I'm going to make LinkedIn work." And they're like white knuckling

work." And they're like white knuckling it like trying to get their post like

it like trying to get their post like Yeah.

Yeah. Let it flow a bit. Like have fun. Don't

Let it flow a bit. Like have fun. Don't don't put so much. Don't don't let

don't put so much. Don't don't let everything feel like it needs to hang in

everything feel like it needs to hang in the balance. If you have a bad LinkedIn

the balance. If you have a bad LinkedIn post, it happens to everyone. Just it's

post, it happens to everyone. Just it's okay, you know, it it doesn't have to be

okay, you know, it it doesn't have to be so much writing on everything.

so much writing on everything. Do do you think part of that is that

Do do you think part of that is that just like we w like you said earlier in

just like we w like you said earlier in the conversation, we watch what's

the conversation, we watch what's working with other people and the

working with other people and the assumption is that we can somehow create

assumption is that we can somehow create a formula to then do it ourselves and

a formula to then do it ourselves and then brute force it and then when it

then brute force it and then when it doesn't work there, you go into this

doesn't work there, you go into this like hole almost and it's hard to get

like hole almost and it's hard to get out of it. I mean, I've experienced this

out of it. I mean, I've experienced this myself, so I'm speaking from some

myself, so I'm speaking from some firsthand experience. Have you observed

firsthand experience. Have you observed that with just like your previous model

that with just like your previous model with the agency and now like

with the agency and now like distributing it more broadly like is

distributing it more broadly like is that continuation with your users like

that continuation with your users like do they

do they Yeah. What is it? Comparison is the

Yeah. What is it? Comparison is the thief of joy.

thief of joy. Yes. Right.

Yes. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And never is it been so easy to compare

And never is it been so easy to compare ourselves you know on these social

ourselves you know on these social platforms. Whether it's Instagram and

platforms. Whether it's Instagram and you're comparing your life to someone

you're comparing your life to someone else's life that they have a more

else's life that they have a more perfect house and a more perfect

perfect house and a more perfect backyard and a more perfect husband and

backyard and a more perfect husband and you know or LinkedIn, right? They're

you know or LinkedIn, right? They're they're getting bigger reach than I am.

they're getting bigger reach than I am. They're kind of doing The reality is is

They're kind of doing The reality is is that lots of things work on LinkedIn.

that lots of things work on LinkedIn. And what we're trying to do is allow

And what we're trying to do is allow people to run experiments and make it

people to run experiments and make it easy for them to create content

easy for them to create content consistently and then to track the

consistently and then to track the results of what's working for them and

results of what's working for them and just kind of reinforce that. And you

just kind of reinforce that. And you know, it's it's funny like so I I'll

know, it's it's funny like so I I'll give another example of this about how

give another example of this about how it's just hard to take someone else's

it's just hard to take someone else's playbook and apply it to you. So Zayn,

playbook and apply it to you. So Zayn, our CEO, he has over 40,000 followers on

our CEO, he has over 40,000 followers on LinkedIn and he has incredible content.

LinkedIn and he has incredible content. His content, you know, always has tons

His content, you know, always has tons of engagements, lots of impressions. He

of engagements, lots of impressions. He talks a lot about AI, about kind of VCs,

talks a lot about AI, about kind of VCs, investments, things that are happening

investments, things that are happening in that ecosystem. And that's his kind

in that ecosystem. And that's his kind of breadandbut style post. When I talk

of breadandbut style post. When I talk about AI, and I think there's lots of

about AI, and I think there's lots of interesting things to talk about AI in

interesting things to talk about AI in the context of marketing, my AI style

the context of marketing, my AI style posts tend to perform very poorly. It's

posts tend to perform very poorly. It's not a topic that my audience is very

not a topic that my audience is very interested in. They are they would much

interested in. They are they would much rather hear a funny story or an anecdote

rather hear a funny story or an anecdote or me wax poetic in some

or me wax poetic in some self-deprecating way about motherhood.

self-deprecating way about motherhood. Like that is more what they're tuned

Like that is more what they're tuned into. And the reverse when Zayn tries to

into. And the reverse when Zayn tries to wade into kind of my territory and talk

wade into kind of my territory and talk about things in the way I talk about

about things in the way I talk about them, his content doesn't perform very

them, his content doesn't perform very well. And so, you know, the the strategy

well. And so, you know, the the strategy is being able to set up a content

is being able to set up a content strategy for each individual seat within

strategy for each individual seat within an organization and recognize that

an organization and recognize that everyone's going to have different, you

everyone's going to have different, you know, they're going to have different

know, they're going to have different strengths. They're going to have

strengths. They're going to have different audiences. They're going to

different audiences. They're going to want to talk about different topics.

want to talk about different topics. Like, that's a benefit, but it's hard

Like, that's a benefit, but it's hard for people to crack that on their own,

for people to crack that on their own, right? That's why the I mean, this is

right? That's why the I mean, this is why your product exists to some level,

why your product exists to some level, right? like to get that. I mean, a to a

right? like to get that. I mean, a to a tool is a tool until you know how to

tool is a tool until you know how to point it at what you actually want to

point it at what you actually want to accomplish. And I think some of that

accomplish. And I think some of that gets lost with the catchalls. Like I've

gets lost with the catchalls. Like I've seen products out there that say, you

seen products out there that say, you know, type in one sentence and

know, type in one sentence and everything else happens, which which is

everything else happens, which which is simply not possible. And I think what I

simply not possible. And I think what I appreciated about Blazil and how you're

appreciated about Blazil and how you're doing it is it takes time to curate the

doing it is it takes time to curate the voice. Like if you haven't established

voice. Like if you haven't established one yet, it takes time. And I think

one yet, it takes time. And I think that's something that's important for

that's something that's important for users to commit to some batch of time.

users to commit to some batch of time. Yeah, 100%. you got to make a commitment

Yeah, 100%. you got to make a commitment to it. But we're also trying to make

to it. But we're also trying to make this really easy at the same time. Like

this really easy at the same time. Like we're ingesting a ton of data on our

we're ingesting a ton of data on our clients. And so we have data rooms that

clients. And so we have data rooms that each individual client sets up.

each individual client sets up. Then we have over 20,000 news

Then we have over 20,000 news publications that we subscribe to. And

publications that we subscribe to. And each individual person gets to choose

each individual person gets to choose which news publications they want to

which news publications they want to prioritize and what topics they care to

prioritize and what topics they care to talk about. So, we're constantly

talk about. So, we're constantly bringing in like trending, breaking news

bringing in like trending, breaking news and we we surface angles for each

and we we surface angles for each article. So, if you see an article you

article. So, if you see an article you like, you can say like, "Oh, here's

like, you can say like, "Oh, here's three art here's three different angles.

three art here's three different angles. I can just choose the angle I want and

I can just choose the angle I want and jump on a voice interview and the post

jump on a voice interview and the post writes itself." Um, we proactively send

writes itself." Um, we proactively send posts to our clients based off of

posts to our clients based off of trending news, what's in their data

trending news, what's in their data room, interviews we've done in the past.

room, interviews we've done in the past. We ingest their AI notes, podcasts, uh,

We ingest their AI notes, podcasts, uh, blogs, articles they're writing, like

blogs, articles they're writing, like all of this stuff. So, like, yes, you

all of this stuff. So, like, yes, you need to be consistent. Like, yes, you

need to be consistent. Like, yes, you need to commit to it, but how can we

need to commit to it, but how can we make this as low of a cognitive lift for

make this as low of a cognitive lift for people as possible, I think is probably

people as possible, I think is probably where that sweet spot sits.

where that sweet spot sits. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's awesome. I think

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's awesome. I think like that's a way to bring them in the

like that's a way to bring them in the door and keep them there. I think all

door and keep them there. I think all the tooling you've put around it is is

the tooling you've put around it is is really powerful. Just switching gears

really powerful. Just switching gears for a moment, I'm going to, if it's okay

for a moment, I'm going to, if it's okay with you, I just want to do a little bit

with you, I just want to do a little bit of rapid fire personal close. So, first

of rapid fire personal close. So, first question I had for you is which business

question I had for you is which business leader do you kind of emulate, borrow

leader do you kind of emulate, borrow from, just just get kind of get

from, just just get kind of get inspiration from? It doesn't have to be

inspiration from? It doesn't have to be in your domain.

in your domain. Gosh, there's so many people that I'm

Gosh, there's so many people that I'm taking notes from. I really like what

taking notes from. I really like what the marketing team at Gamma is doing.

the marketing team at Gamma is doing. Okay.

Okay. They're taking big, bold, creative

They're taking big, bold, creative swings. I'm a huge fan of the marketing

swings. I'm a huge fan of the marketing team at Air AIR. They're doing kind of

team at Air AIR. They're doing kind of these crazy outlandish videos and the

these crazy outlandish videos and the way they're building brand is just

way they're building brand is just incredible. Who are some of my other

incredible. Who are some of my other favorites? I mean, I have a lot of

favorites? I mean, I have a lot of different people I follow on LinkedIn. I

different people I follow on LinkedIn. I think Peter, the data, the CEO at datab

think Peter, the data, the CEO at datab box does a really good job of kind of

box does a really good job of kind of distilling kind of AI data oriented

distilling kind of AI data oriented topics into like interesting sound like

topics into like interesting sound like interesting clips. Peter Walker at Carta

interesting clips. Peter Walker at Carta has done an amazing job of taking what I

has done an amazing job of taking what I would consider a very boring category of

would consider a very boring category of like equity cap table management and

like equity cap table management and they have all this proprietary data that

they have all this proprietary data that then they're sharing and making it into

then they're sharing and making it into a story. They're making it really

a story. They're making it really interesting. I think a lot of companies

interesting. I think a lot of companies could learn from them. Also learned a

could learn from them. Also learned a lot from Zayn and just following him and

lot from Zayn and just following him and and I think he does an incredible job of

and I think he does an incredible job of putting out content. He's so consistent

putting out content. He's so consistent with it even though he's got so much

with it even though he's got so much going on and managing the company and

going on and managing the company and kind of all these things. So yeah,

kind of all these things. So yeah, there's tons of people out there that I

there's tons of people out there that I I I save their post and I look at the

I I save their post and I look at the things they're doing and I take

things they're doing and I take inspiration from them.

inspiration from them. Nice. I just to follow up from that, I

Nice. I just to follow up from that, I found you through Zayn's post and like a

found you through Zayn's post and like a common thread I saw between both of you

common thread I saw between both of you is that you have like very strong

is that you have like very strong comedic sensibility, like professional

comedic sensibility, like professional comedic sensibility. So I just wondering

comedic sensibility. So I just wondering where does that come from? Is there is

where does that come from? Is there is there a like a source, a writer, a show,

there a like a source, a writer, a show, a comedian that you just kind of say

a comedian that you just kind of say this really like stuck inside your mind?

this really like stuck inside your mind? That happens because we have a very

That happens because we have a very strong working relationship. And so the

strong working relationship. And so the reason why Zayn and I are able to ri

reason why Zayn and I are able to ri each other and make fun of each other

each other and make fun of each other online publicly, which is something that

online publicly, which is something that most people are not used to seeing, is

most people are not used to seeing, is because we work really well together.

because we work really well together. And I think there's a a a healthy base

And I think there's a a a healthy base level of trust between the two of us.

level of trust between the two of us. And we are able to play up like when I

And we are able to play up like when I say there's kernels of truth to things,

say there's kernels of truth to things, right? The kernel of truth to this is

right? The kernel of truth to this is that CEOs are often feeling like

that CEOs are often feeling like marketing is spending too much money or

marketing is spending too much money or that marketing can't attribute the spend

that marketing can't attribute the spend to something. And CMOs feel like they're

to something. And CMOs feel like they're not appreciated. They're wearing a

not appreciated. They're wearing a thousand hats. They're doing all these

thousand hats. They're doing all these things and that sometimes just

things and that sometimes just attribution isn't possible. And there's

attribution isn't possible. And there's this like tension or friction between

this like tension or friction between like CMOs and CEOs, right? And so we're

like CMOs and CEOs, right? And so we're playing off of that feeling that feels

playing off of that feeling that feels very relatable to a lot of people. And

very relatable to a lot of people. And we kind of take these personas and we

we kind of take these personas and we amplify them to almost a point of

amplify them to almost a point of absurdity and then we do it in public,

absurdity and then we do it in public, right? And it just kind of started to

right? And it just kind of started to happen naturally and then we saw it

happen naturally and then we saw it worked and we just kept kind of feeding

worked and we just kept kind of feeding the flames, you know, and so

the flames, you know, and so people will do things like say like,

people will do things like say like, "Oh, you deserve a raise." And I'll be

"Oh, you deserve a raise." And I'll be like, "Great, CC my boss." And I'll, you

like, "Great, CC my boss." And I'll, you know, like tag Zayn in it, right? And

know, like tag Zayn in it, right? And we'll like do these like funny

we'll like do these like funny interplays. And I think again because

interplays. And I think again because it's kind of taboo or different or

it's kind of taboo or different or unexpected, it gets a lot of attention,

unexpected, it gets a lot of attention, right? Yeah. Yeah. And and I think

right? Yeah. Yeah. And and I think you're you're doing what people probably

you're you're doing what people probably do in little moments in their in their

do in little moments in their in their office or their wherever their working

office or their wherever their working situation is, but it's never captured or

situation is, but it's never captured or kind of scaled up. So there's an amount

kind of scaled up. So there's an amount of bravery that you both have kind of

of bravery that you both have kind of just built in. So I really admire that.

just built in. So I really admire that. Thank you. I I think that the biggest

Thank you. I I think that the biggest there was someone on the TLDDR team, the

there was someone on the TLDDR team, the AI notetaker Renee that I interviewed at

AI notetaker Renee that I interviewed at one point and I said like how do people

one point and I said like how do people how should people be funny? Like how

how should people be funny? Like how does it work? And she said, "You just

does it work? And she said, "You just have to be really perceptive." And I

have to be really perceptive." And I think that is actually a skill is that

think that is actually a skill is that if you can just pay attention to the

if you can just pay attention to the moments that are happening in your day

moments that are happening in your day of the things that excite you, anger

of the things that excite you, anger you, make you feel strongly about

you, make you feel strongly about something, you can start to tap into,

something, you can start to tap into, you can start to kind of understand like

you can start to kind of understand like what kind of content will people relate

what kind of content will people relate to? What kinds of videos should you put

to? What kinds of videos should you put out? Like what's going to really

out? Like what's going to really resonate with your customers? like you

resonate with your customers? like you just really like I think perception is

just really like I think perception is actually a really key skill in all of

actually a really key skill in all of this.

this. I think and I think having so much

I think and I think having so much inbound noise and content, it sometimes

inbound noise and content, it sometimes blocks your perception of things. So I

blocks your perception of things. So I think some sometimes there's that like

think some sometimes there's that like like when you're eating sushi, you have

like when you're eating sushi, you have a pallet reset, right? I think sometimes

a pallet reset, right? I think sometimes people have to do pallet resets as

people have to do pallet resets as professionals in the knowledge economy.

professionals in the knowledge economy. Like for me, I take walks or try to read

Like for me, I take walks or try to read like a physical book.

like a physical book. Yeah. And and on that note, just just

Yeah. And and on that note, just just before I wanted to ask you, what helps

before I wanted to ask you, what helps you reset when you're not building

you reset when you're not building Blazo? Like what do you do to help

Blazo? Like what do you do to help yourself reset?

yourself reset? Uh I love doing like camping and hiking

Uh I love doing like camping and hiking trips like even if short little weekend

trips like even if short little weekend aways. I have very low self-control and

aways. I have very low self-control and so if I'm at home, I will find a way

so if I'm at home, I will find a way onto Slack or I will find my way onto

onto Slack or I will find my way onto LinkedIn or I'll read emails or I'll

LinkedIn or I'll read emails or I'll whatever. And so I almost have to

whatever. And so I almost have to enforce like hard resets for myself

enforce like hard resets for myself where I just get away even if it's for

where I just get away even if it's for 48 hours to just go camping with my

48 hours to just go camping with my kids, you know, get out of my house, get

kids, you know, get out of my house, get into a new environment where like my

into a new environment where like my brain is just stimulated in a different

brain is just stimulated in a different way.

way. And it must always help when you come

And it must always help when you come back online.

back online. I think so. I I think so. You know,

I think so. I I think so. You know, we're we and you know, like I have small

we're we and you know, like I have small children. I have a four-year-old and a

children. I have a four-year-old and a 2-year-old. You know, these are really

2-year-old. You know, these are really formative years for them. and and so

formative years for them. and and so it's it's hard. It's hard being a parent

it's it's hard. It's hard being a parent and run trying to do intense job stuff

and run trying to do intense job stuff at the same time. And

at the same time. And yeah,

yeah, so I think we as a family just really

so I think we as a family just really value that time together and that time

value that time together and that time away.

away. That's phenomenal. We can we're going to

That's phenomenal. We can we're going to wrap right there, Caitlyn. Thank you so

wrap right there, Caitlyn. Thank you so much.

much. Behind [music] the

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