Summary
Marco, founder of Decision Stability, joins Amit to explain why decisions keep landing back on a founder's desk even after they've been delegated. He argues that the real bottleneck is usually unwritten rules, not bad hires, and shares a simple test to tell the difference: if your most experienced person and your newest hire bring you the same decision, the problem is the decision, not the people. The conversation covers the difference between delegating work and delegating judgment, why vague instructions like "just keep me in the loop" train teams to over-escalate, and how founders can set clear limits around cost, reversibility, and impact so people know what they're allowed to decide on their own without adding unnecessary bureaucracy.
Transcript
Behind the code.
Behind the code. [singing]
Behind the code. [singing] That's where the [music] future grows.
That's where the [music] future grows. Welcome to Behind the Code brought to
Welcome to Behind the Code brought to you by Atomic Build. I'm Ait and with me
you by Atomic Build. I'm Ait and with me today I have Marco, the founder of
today I have Marco, the founder of Decision Stability. Marco, really happy
Decision Stability. Marco, really happy to have you here today for the
to have you here today for the conversation.
conversation. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure.
Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. And Marco, I mean, in case it's not
And Marco, I mean, in case it's not obvious in the name, but can you tell us
obvious in the name, but can you tell us a little bit about what you do?
a little bit about what you do? So day job uh I lead the global
So day job uh I lead the global engineering team right before that I
engineering team right before that I spent a few years at Google after about
spent a few years at Google after about 500 rejections so please don't get the
500 rejections so please don't get the logo fool you right I was very very good
logo fool you right I was very very good at getting told no but uh somewhere
at getting told no but uh somewhere along the way I got a bit obsessed with
along the way I got a bit obsessed with leadership under pressure right because
leadership under pressure right because that's been my whole career really so
that's been my whole career really so something's broken customers waiting
something's broken customers waiting three teams is involved, how the
three teams is involved, how the information is missing and somebody has
information is missing and somebody has to make the call, right? And one
to make the call, right? And one question kept bugging me. Why do
question kept bugging me. Why do decisions keep landing on the same desk
decisions keep landing on the same desk even after they've been delegated? So I
even after they've been delegated? So I built a framework around it probably
built a framework around it probably thousands of hours by now before CHP and
thousands of hours by now before CHP and Claude and a lot of these went into
Claude and a lot of these went into trying to break it right live with real
trying to break it right live with real teams and then in simulations once uh AI
teams and then in simulations once uh AI came to play right it broke plenty
came to play right it broke plenty that's honestly the useful part right
that's honestly the useful part right once you break it and now I work with
once you break it and now I work with founders and CEOs on exactly that
founders and CEOs on exactly that problem and one A it'll be a book I hope
problem and one A it'll be a book I hope if I ever stop rewriting it.
if I ever stop rewriting it. Yeah. Well, I mean it's a it's a topic
Yeah. Well, I mean it's a it's a topic that requires I think so much iteration
that requires I think so much iteration because the way people approach
because the way people approach decisions is so unique as an individual.
decisions is so unique as an individual. So I think that's um I think you'll get
So I think that's um I think you'll get to that book. It just might have a lot
to that book. It just might have a lot of chapters.
of chapters. Yeah. Especially after whole podcasting
Yeah. Especially after whole podcasting gig, right? A lot unwrapped there.
gig, right? A lot unwrapped there. Definitely. So we're going to focus
Definitely. So we're going to focus today's conversation around exactly that
today's conversation around exactly that like uh decision-m by founders and where
like uh decision-m by founders and where they may become the single choke point
they may become the single choke point or blocker um for their team. Um and on
or blocker um for their team. Um and on that topic just to to start off like in
that topic just to to start off like in the earliest days of a startup um often
the earliest days of a startup um often it is the founder making all the
it is the founder making all the decisions um especially ones that are
decisions um especially ones that are one-way doors and very critical to the
one-way doors and very critical to the company. Um, at what point do you think
company. Um, at what point do you think that behavior it stops becoming a
that behavior it stops becoming a competitive advantage and it starts
competitive advantage and it starts becoming a liability?
Look, the founder doesn't suddenly get
worse, right? The company just outgrows
worse, right? The company just outgrows the setup or decision setup, right? It's
the setup or decision setup, right? It's 10 people. Everybody knows who decides
10 people. Everybody knows who decides what, right? Nobody writes it down. And
what, right? Nobody writes it down. And why should you write it down? And you're
why should you write it down? And you're all sitting in the one room usually,
all sitting in the one room usually, right? Uh someone shouts a question
right? Uh someone shouts a question across the office. You shout back an
across the office. You shout back an answer. Done. Right at that stage, the
answer. Done. Right at that stage, the founder deciding fast basically is the
founder deciding fast basically is the system, right? And it works beautifully
system, right? And it works beautifully when the company is small precaling,
when the company is small precaling, right? Then you're 40 people all of a
right? Then you're 40 people all of a sudden, 60, 100 in some cases, and half
sudden, 60, 100 in some cases, and half of them joined after the last offsite,
of them joined after the last offsite, right? They never sat in that room. They
right? They never sat in that room. They don't know the rules because the rules
don't know the rules because the rules were never written anywhere. They were
were never written anywhere. They were shouted back, right? They're in the
shouted back, right? They're in the founders's head. Or maybe now that's the
founders's head. Or maybe now that's the CEO, right? If you scaled. So what
CEO, right? If you scaled. So what happens every time someone isn't sure
happens every time someone isn't sure who's allowed to call it, it floats up
who's allowed to call it, it floats up quietly. Quick question, just checking.
quietly. Quick question, just checking. Do you have five minutes? Right. And
Do you have five minutes? Right. And this at the end of the day the speed was
this at the end of the day the speed was never the problem. The problem is that
never the problem. The problem is that company grew up and the rules are still
company grew up and the rules are still living in one person's head.
living in one person's head. Right. Do and with the rise of um the
Right. Do and with the rise of um the usage of like these company brain
usage of like these company brain concepts where everyone is dumping
concepts where everyone is dumping context into an AI and then like you
context into an AI and then like you said like new staff might go into a
said like new staff might go into a Slack channel and chat with them. Does
Slack channel and chat with them. Does that do you from your observation has
that do you from your observation has that broken the cycle or is that a
that broken the cycle or is that a realistic step to break the cycle or
realistic step to break the cycle or does that just add to the problem in
does that just add to the problem in some cases?
some cases? I think it adds to the problem because
I think it adds to the problem because what we're dealing with is human beings
what we're dealing with is human beings at the end of the day, right? Uh there's
at the end of the day, right? Uh there's another layer of AI and how moving
another layer of AI and how moving forward leadership will be different and
forward leadership will be different and look a lot different, right? because you
look a lot different, right? because you won't be managing a team of humans. You
won't be managing a team of humans. You might manage team of 100 AI agents plus
might manage team of 100 AI agents plus 70 humans, right? So there's a lot to
70 humans, right? So there's a lot to unpack on on that topic. But if we are
unpack on on that topic. But if we are talking about humans specifically,
talking about humans specifically, right? I feel that it complicates the
right? I feel that it complicates the thing because again we're talking about
thing because again we're talking about unwritten rules. How
unwritten rules. How unwanted delegation comes back. I'll
unwanted delegation comes back. I'll give you an example, right? You as a
give you an example, right? You as a founder or a CEO told a new hire, please
founder or a CEO told a new hire, please keep me in CC
keep me in CC once. This new hire will take this to
once. This new hire will take this to heart as an unwritten rule. He will keep
heart as an unwritten rule. He will keep you in CC every every other time the
you in CC every every other time the similar topic comes up, right? And then
similar topic comes up, right? And then you'll get frustrated. This guy, I
you'll get frustrated. This guy, I delegated the decision. It's constantly
delegated the decision. It's constantly he's constantly bothering me. He doesn't
he's constantly bothering me. He doesn't have a clue I'm paying him to do this.
have a clue I'm paying him to do this. Right? But the thing is uh you teach
Right? But the thing is uh you teach people based on unwritten rules on your
people based on unwritten rules on your behaviors. Right? That's this layer
behaviors. Right? That's this layer where it gets even more complicated. If
where it gets even more complicated. If you outsource everything to AI agents
you outsource everything to AI agents that are connected to Slack and so on,
that are connected to Slack and so on, they still don't know what constraints
they still don't know what constraints people operate in, right? Their
people operate in, right? Their environment, what are they going
environment, what are they going through, right? Someone might be sick,
through, right? Someone might be sick, someone's wife might be pregnant, right?
someone's wife might be pregnant, right? So, he made a decision in the moment
So, he made a decision in the moment based on constraints that were affecting
based on constraints that were affecting that him as a person, right? So, I think
that him as a person, right? So, I think we're still in this gray area and it's
we're still in this gray area and it's scary place to be, I think. Right.
scary place to be, I think. Right. Yeah. I I think so. So, like a question
Yeah. I I think so. So, like a question that came up while you're saying that,
that came up while you're saying that, so there must be early signs that this
so there must be early signs that this behavior might become a problem as a
behavior might become a problem as a company scaling. But if a like if a
company scaling. But if a like if a founder or founding team can does not
founder or founding team can does not see it right like they don't actually
see it right like they don't actually see the sign and it simply just scales
see the sign and it simply just scales out as their company grows. Um at what
out as their company grows. Um at what point when it starts affecting execution
point when it starts affecting execution have you seen like teams starting to
have you seen like teams starting to address the problem internally and maybe
address the problem internally and maybe getting stuck um and then what do they
getting stuck um and then what do they do in those cases? I mean reg just
do in those cases? I mean reg just related to signs right you mentioned
related to signs right you mentioned early signs I think the simplest sign
early signs I think the simplest sign actually is next time someone brings you
actually is next time someone brings you a decision as a founder or CEO before
a decision as a founder or CEO before you answer ask them what would you do
you answer ask them what would you do and then just listen right because if
and then just listen right because if they've already got an answer a good one
they've already got an answer a good one decent answer. They didn't escalate the
decent answer. They didn't escalate the thinking, right? They escalated your
thinking, right? They escalated your signature. That's the interesting bit
signature. That's the interesting bit here. They had the brain for it to make
here. They had the brain for it to make a decision. So, why couldn't then they
a decision. So, why couldn't then they sign it? That's a good question, right?
sign it? That's a good question, right? That no one asks, right? Why is this
That no one asks, right? Why is this delegate delegated back to me? Maybe
delegate delegated back to me? Maybe they don't have the authority. Maybe
they don't have the authority. Maybe they're missing a piece of information
they're missing a piece of information or maybe if it goes wrong, they're
or maybe if it goes wrong, they're afraid they're standing there alone.
afraid they're standing there alone. Right? Each of these needs a completely
Right? Each of these needs a completely different fix in the company. So it
different fix in the company. So it really depends uh what the actual issue
really depends uh what the actual issue is and it's again a lot to unpack here
is and it's again a lot to unpack here because again it could be trust, it
because again it could be trust, it could be authority, it could be ego of a
could be authority, it could be ego of a CEO who still wants to be involved.
CEO who still wants to be involved. That's the hard conversation sometimes I
That's the hard conversation sometimes I enjoy having with CEOs and founders.
enjoy having with CEOs and founders. Right man, it's not your team, it's you.
Right man, it's not your team, it's you. Right? you trained your team to be
Right? you trained your team to be dependable or or dependent on on your
dependable or or dependent on on your decision, right? So there's a lot of
decision, right? So there's a lot of layers here, right? Uh and it always
layers here, right? Uh and it always depends which one which layer is uh
depends which one which layer is uh where the root cause is hiding, right?
where the root cause is hiding, right? Mhm. you and in a recent post you
Mhm. you and in a recent post you mentioned like on this this just topic
mentioned like on this this just topic that you're you're talking about uh
that you're you're talking about uh someone comes in to ask a founder like
someone comes in to ask a founder like they're weighing in on a decision and
they're weighing in on a decision and you say hey like what do you think and
you say hey like what do you think and recent post you mentioned sometimes your
recent post you mentioned sometimes your body language or face is conveying
body language or face is conveying something different than like your words
something different than like your words itself um as someone who has like a I
itself um as someone who has like a I was born with a very serious face I I've
was born with a very serious face I I've noticed this in my own journey that I'm
noticed this in my own journey that I'm genuinely trying to listen and
genuinely trying to listen and incorporating getting feedback, but the
incorporating getting feedback, but the person leaves the meeting unsure that
person leaves the meeting unsure that what what they said is how we're going
what what they said is how we're going to go forward and reverts back to like
to go forward and reverts back to like my decision. So, how do you overcome
my decision. So, how do you overcome that as a founder that is happens to
that as a founder that is happens to have like a preset very serious?
have like a preset very serious? I I think trust me, I came from Croatia,
I I think trust me, I came from Croatia, right? I'm Croatian guy who
right? I'm Croatian guy who I mean it's baked into my personality to
I mean it's baked into my personality to be tough and cold, right? So I had a a
be tough and cold, right? So I had a a similar problem. I think first step is
similar problem. I think first step is awareness and obviously you have it
awareness and obviously you have it right. So I mean if you're not aware of
right. So I mean if you're not aware of it you will never fix it in a way. So
it you will never fix it in a way. So it's just I think it it's step by step
it's just I think it it's step by step right take a deep breath before uh
right take a deep breath before uh reacting or providing feedback and
reacting or providing feedback and sometimes force yourself to smile. For
sometimes force yourself to smile. For me the the biggest actually leap and uh
me the the biggest actually leap and uh the point
the point at which I think I became a lot better
at which I think I became a lot better leader in actually active listening and
leader in actually active listening and how to communicate feedback better was
how to communicate feedback better was just the simple act of looking someone
just the simple act of looking someone just eye contact right because that's
just eye contact right because that's the thing I struggled with the most
the thing I struggled with the most through my whole life right I I was
through my whole life right I I was always the person who
always the person who who could listen to someone or talk to
who could listen to someone or talk to you, right, without an eye contact. It
you, right, without an eye contact. It was always somehow weird for me. And
was always somehow weird for me. And when I improved that one, all of a
when I improved that one, all of a sudden it was easier to smile back, to
sudden it was easier to smile back, to drop the cold face, right? Because you
drop the cold face, right? Because you feel more connected, right? And if
feel more connected, right? And if you're just cold and staring into
you're just cold and staring into someone's eyes, it's weird, right? You
someone's eyes, it's weird, right? You will eventually smile. So, in a way, it
will eventually smile. So, in a way, it forces you to be more natural and drop
forces you to be more natural and drop the [ __ ] act, right, of being tough
the [ __ ] act, right, of being tough guy. So I think eye contact uh helps a
guy. So I think eye contact uh helps a lot. At least it helped for me.
lot. At least it helped for me. Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean that resonates
Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean that resonates with me as well. I find myself I look
with me as well. I find myself I look away when I want to think and that
away when I want to think and that breaks the contact and connection with
breaks the contact and connection with that person and sometimes it's perceived
that person and sometimes it's perceived as like oh they're not interested in
as like oh they're not interested in anymore in what I'm saying. Um so what
anymore in what I'm saying. Um so what what was like one of the ways you leaned
what was like one of the ways you leaned into that? Like you're saying it really
into that? Like you're saying it really helped. How did you lean into that? Uh I
helped. How did you lean into that? Uh I mean this was more on a personal level,
mean this was more on a personal level, right? My wife told me, "Man, you can't
right? My wife told me, "Man, you can't go through life like that, [laughter]
go through life like that, [laughter] right?
right? You're leading a team. You're
You're leading a team. You're established, right? Uh with a nice CV,
established, right? Uh with a nice CV, nice background, you're advising
nice background, you're advising leaders, CEOs, and and at the end of the
leaders, CEOs, and and at the end of the day, you can't uh
day, you can't uh maintain an eye contact with a bartender
maintain an eye contact with a bartender in a coffee shop, right? So you have to
in a coffee shop, right? So you have to work on this because again it's also
work on this because again it's also part of the trust. Trust is the most
part of the trust. Trust is the most important in sales, management,
important in sales, management, leadership, uh marketing, in any
leadership, uh marketing, in any business. Every I mean as you mentioned,
business. Every I mean as you mentioned, I host host a podcast as well. And the
I host host a podcast as well. And the funny thing is whoever I speak with,
funny thing is whoever I speak with, author, philosopher, neuroscientist,
author, philosopher, neuroscientist, right? We always come back to the same
right? We always come back to the same topic, trust. And how will I trust you
topic, trust. And how will I trust you if you can't even look me straight in my
if you can't even look me straight in my eyes for three minutes straight, right?
eyes for three minutes straight, right? Yeah. So
Yeah. So it was more of a re revelation based on
it was more of a re revelation based on conversation with my wife, right? She
conversation with my wife, right? She said, "Uh, we can't do this anymore.
said, "Uh, we can't do this anymore. Start start working on your eye
Start start working on your eye contact."
contact." You know, it's it's the person who gets
You know, it's it's the person who gets to observe you the most, right? So, it's
to observe you the most, right? So, it's good that you're Yeah, you're open to
good that you're Yeah, you're open to that to that feedback. It's fantastic.
that to that feedback. It's fantastic. Um, and you've always like from from
Um, and you've always like from from your posts and things you've shared,
your posts and things you've shared, you've been a really strong um,
you've been a really strong um, individual contributor and sometimes
individual contributor and sometimes it's a struggle to delegate when you're
it's a struggle to delegate when you're in that space and as you mentioned, you
in that space and as you mentioned, you have to be able to actually see it in
have to be able to actually see it in yourself. Do you remember one of the
yourself. Do you remember one of the things that caused your teams to depend
things that caused your teams to depend on you more than themselves? And then
on you more than themselves? And then what helped you break out of that cycle?
what helped you break out of that cycle? Yeah, I mean for me personally, my whole
Yeah, I mean for me personally, my whole background is escalation, right? And
background is escalation, right? And coming from engineering background,
coming from engineering background, something's on fire, customer waiting, I
something's on fire, customer waiting, I jump in and sort it out. Engineering
jump in and sort it out. Engineering brain, right? And I was really good at
brain, right? And I was really good at it, probably a bit too proud of it. And
it, probably a bit too proud of it. And amazing solo performer, absolutely
amazing solo performer, absolutely terrible of at letting go. So when I
terrible of at letting go. So when I started leading a team and even before
started leading a team and even before actually when I started my transition
actually when I started my transition from just really good solo performant to
from just really good solo performant to lead role I mean guess what I did I did
lead role I mean guess what I did I did exactly the same thing someone's stuck
exactly the same thing someone's stuck give it here right I'll do it it's
give it here right I'll do it it's faster than explaining right uh and in
faster than explaining right uh and in the moment it is faster right especially
the moment it is faster right especially when you're still transitioning I
when you're still transitioning I actually discussed this with Dr. David
actually discussed this with Dr. David Burkus uh he mentioned that it's often
Burkus uh he mentioned that it's often 6 months after the promotion
6 months after the promotion uh that managers or leaders are still in
uh that managers or leaders are still in a way doing their old job 70% of their
a way doing their old job 70% of their old jobs right because in a way people
old jobs right because in a way people are dependent on you and you haven't
are dependent on you and you haven't trained a team to operate without you
trained a team to operate without you especially in engineering uh teams where
especially in engineering uh teams where you're pretty technical and good solo
you're pretty technical and good solo performer. But
performer. But to to to to
to to to to get back to circle back to the topic
get back to circle back to the topic again, it was faster than explaining, so
again, it was faster than explaining, so I would do it right. But the team was
I would do it right. But the team was watching and they learned a pretty
watching and they learned a pretty reasonable lesson. I would say fastest
reasonable lesson. I would say fastest way to close anything around here, walk
way to close anything around here, walk it over to Marco, right? I'd handed over
it over to Marco, right? I'd handed over the work. I just kept the final say,
the work. I just kept the final say, right? And letting go uh was that hard
right? And letting go uh was that hard part of the whole job, way harder than
part of the whole job, way harder than anything technical. So
anything technical. So for me, it was I think just a small
for me, it was I think just a small moment, nothing dramatic. Someone
moment, nothing dramatic. Someone brought me a clean call. I thought
brought me a clean call. I thought went through it, right? Options checked,
went through it, right? Options checked, ready to go. And I heard myself, let me
ready to go. And I heard myself, let me just have a quick look, right? And I
just have a quick look, right? And I kind of froze because I knew what that
kind of froze because I knew what that sentence means, right? It's a polite way
sentence means, right? It's a polite way of saying I'd like to be the reason this
of saying I'd like to be the reason this takes another week, right? They didn't
takes another week, right? They didn't need my brain. They needed me out of the
need my brain. They needed me out of the way, you know? So things were just
way, you know? So things were just escalated and it it was just waste of
escalated and it it was just waste of time, right? Because just because you
time, right? Because just because you train someone that uh whenever the
train someone that uh whenever the decision gets complicated or tricky,
decision gets complicated or tricky, right? That you're the set of eyes
right? That you're the set of eyes that's needed to look at the issue. In a
that's needed to look at the issue. In a way, it trains your team that whenever
way, it trains your team that whenever it gets tricky, sticky or complicated,
it gets tricky, sticky or complicated, you're the one who has to give a
you're the one who has to give a blessing, right? And it takes time. And
blessing, right? And it takes time. And when you start leading people is
when you start leading people is draining, right? Because you're like,
draining, right? Because you're like, you guys should know that, right? Why
you guys should know that, right? Why are you still asking me? You know,
are you still asking me? You know, because you trained them to ask.
because you trained them to ask. Yeah, that's a really good point. So, so
Yeah, that's a really good point. So, so like you train them through your
like you train them through your behavior, not formally, but your
behavior, not formally, but your behavior, right?
behavior, right? And it's not written, right?
And it's not written, right? Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I think too like to
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I think too like to your point when you're a strong
your point when you're a strong individual contributor and you move into
individual contributor and you move into a team lead or leadership role there is
a team lead or leadership role there is this aura that follows you where it's
this aura that follows you where it's like oh this person they're clearly
like oh this person they're clearly amazing at this IC role and that's the
amazing at this IC role and that's the role I'm in so deferring to them would
role I'm in so deferring to them would mean one day maybe I'll I'll rise to the
mean one day maybe I'll I'll rise to the same spot and um it's I think it's very
same spot and um it's I think it's very difficult it's much easier to say like
difficult it's much easier to say like I'll I'll use this um model to break
I'll I'll use this um model to break them out of that cycle but can you talk
them out of that cycle but can you talk a little bit about the discipline of
a little bit about the discipline of breaking out of that mentality as an
breaking out of that mentality as an strong IC, now you're a lead or a
strong IC, now you're a lead or a founder. How do you actually get to that
founder. How do you actually get to that place? Is it like a discipline thing
place? Is it like a discipline thing where you just keep doing it and
where you just keep doing it and eventually it sticks or what's what's
eventually it sticks or what's what's there?
there? Yeah, I mean some people never do it
Yeah, I mean some people never do it right. That's why we often see uh a lot
right. That's why we often see uh a lot of really good solo performers who suck
of really good solo performers who suck at managing people, right?
at managing people, right? uh that's uh I mean what I observed in
uh that's uh I mean what I observed in general right and I had my fair share of
general right and I had my fair share of managers directors CEOs as well through
managers directors CEOs as well through my whole professional journey and yeah
my whole professional journey and yeah again it's what's also the trap in
again it's what's also the trap in engineering is that usually solo
engineering is that usually solo performers who get promoted into
performers who get promoted into leadership roles tend to micromanage
leadership roles tend to micromanage right because they have this
right because they have this engineering brain right and it's hard to
engineering brain right and it's hard to let go they're good technically and they
let go they're good technically and they always try to find the root cause of
always try to find the root cause of every potential problem right so it is a
every potential problem right so it is a trap and I think it's it just it depends
trap and I think it's it just it depends also on your personality right and
also on your personality right and awareness are you ready to actually work
awareness are you ready to actually work on yourself and differentiate we must
on yourself and differentiate we must differentiate between good leaders and
differentiate between good leaders and just good performers and both are right
just good performers and both are right again both are beneficial to let's say a
again both are beneficial to let's say a company, right? But let's just not
company, right? But let's just not confuse good uh uh performers with good
confuse good uh uh performers with good leaders because uh again uh a lot of
leaders because uh again uh a lot of these uh skills you learn and uh grow
these uh skills you learn and uh grow through
through being a good solo performer are not
being a good solo performer are not transferable and you just have to in a
transferable and you just have to in a way ditch them to trash bin, right? then
way ditch them to trash bin, right? then just focus more on uh soft skills spec
just focus more on uh soft skills spec specifically right depends on your role
specifically right depends on your role but yeah it's self-awareness is
but yeah it's self-awareness is everything
everything right yeah I guess like doing a internal
right yeah I guess like doing a internal retrospective on yourself every so often
retrospective on yourself every so often is probably um helpful and uh yeah I
is probably um helpful and uh yeah I think it's
think it's I don't think it's easy and you're right
I don't think it's easy and you're right some people do get stuck in that place
some people do get stuck in that place where uh the providing the answer is
where uh the providing the answer is much faster than teaching a system in
much faster than teaching a system in which one can find it themselves. Um on
which one can find it themselves. Um on that topic like if if you're a founder
that topic like if if you're a founder and this is something I think that
and this is something I think that happens often to many people starting
happens often to many people starting companies in technology space
companies in technology space specifically if you find your team's not
specifically if you find your team's not taking ownership right and you fall into
taking ownership right and you fall into this place where you say is it the
this place where you say is it the talent problem like is this just the
talent problem like is this just the wrong team should I consider replacing
wrong team should I consider replacing this team versus is it a decision-m
this team versus is it a decision-m problem
problem yeah I'd always check the decision first
yeah I'd always check the decision first partly because it's a lot cheaper er
partly because it's a lot cheaper er than replacing people, right? Here's
than replacing people, right? Here's here's the tell. I would say if your
here's the tell. I would say if your strongest person and your newest hire
strongest person and your newest hire bring you the same decisions,
bring you the same decisions, look at the decision before you look at
look at the decision before you look at the people, right? Either it really
the people, right? Either it really belongs with you as a CEO and that's
belongs with you as a CEO and that's fair, right? Or something about how it's
fair, right? Or something about how it's set up keeps sending it back, right?
set up keeps sending it back, right? Think about it. your best person who you
Think about it. your best person who you trust with everything and the guy who
trust with everything and the guy who started three weeks ago, same pile, same
started three weeks ago, same pile, same desk. That's not a skill thing anymore,
desk. That's not a skill thing anymore, right? Because this is a new guy. This
right? Because this is a new guy. This is your most experienced guy. So then do
is your most experienced guy. So then do the test. Ask each of them what would
the test. Ask each of them what would you do if they got an answer. You don't
you do if they got an answer. You don't have a talent problem. Obviously, you've
have a talent problem. Obviously, you've you've got an answer with nowhere to go,
you've got an answer with nowhere to go, obviously. Right. M
obviously. Right. M right. Yeah, I think that's a really
right. Yeah, I think that's a really good test that is probably very easy to
good test that is probably very easy to deploy like just to run that that
deploy like just to run that that experiment. Um and and talking talking
experiment. Um and and talking talking about like transitions from IC to team
about like transitions from IC to team lead or from uh seed stage to to series
lead or from uh seed stage to to series A, let's say. um when you make these
A, let's say. um when you make these leaps or or or even further like you're
leaps or or or even further like you're going from midsize to maybe enterprise
going from midsize to maybe enterprise or whatever the leap is that you're
or whatever the leap is that you're making typically there's an expectation
making typically there's an expectation that you now went from being close to
that you now went from being close to the product the customer ground level to
the product the customer ground level to now you're an organization builder. uh
now you're an organization builder. uh in your experience, like how do you know
in your experience, like how do you know or what compass can you give someone to
or what compass can you give someone to know what to hold on to versus what you
know what to hold on to versus what you should give up? Because like you
should give up? Because like you mentioned, sometimes you got to throw it
mentioned, sometimes you got to throw it all in the trash bin, but I'm sure
all in the trash bin, but I'm sure there's some things that are really good
there's some things that are really good that maybe someone should um hold on to.
that maybe someone should um hold on to. How do you make the distinction or how
How do you make the distinction or how would you help someone make the
would you help someone make the distinction?
distinction? I'd actually flip that question because
I'd actually flip that question because if you start with which decision do I
if you start with which decision do I keep, you end up making a list, right?
keep, you end up making a list, right? And that list is out of date by
And that list is out of date by Wednesday. Right? The better question is
Wednesday. Right? The better question is can everyone tell in advance which
can everyone tell in advance which decisions should reach you at seed?
decisions should reach you at seed? Sure. Right. Everyone is in the room as
Sure. Right. Everyone is in the room as we said right in the same room. You can
we said right in the same room. You can see what's going on at series A. Half
see what's going on at series A. Half the team joined last quarter, right?
the team joined last quarter, right? They never saw the unwritten rules as I
They never saw the unwritten rules as I mentioned, right? So people start
mentioned, right? So people start guessing and guessing gets weird, right?
guessing and guessing gets weird, right? I've seen the decision sit untouched for
I've seen the decision sit untouched for 4 days because three people each assumed
4 days because three people each assumed the fourth one had it, right? Nobody was
the fourth one had it, right? Nobody was lazy. Nobody was dodging. They just
lazy. Nobody was dodging. They just genuinely didn't know whose decision it
genuinely didn't know whose decision it was. And when nobody's sure, what
was. And when nobody's sure, what happens? escalation it floats up to you
happens? escalation it floats up to you to CEO to founder right so the goal is
to CEO to founder right so the goal is pretty simple you know which decisions
pretty simple you know which decisions should land on you and everybody else
should land on you and everybody else knows it too before they walk over
knows it too before they walk over actually
actually so on that um topic I'm sure you've
so on that um topic I'm sure you've heard this uh or seen this typed out
heard this uh or seen this typed out many time someone many times someone
many time someone many times someone comes on and then there's this transfer
comes on and then there's this transfer it says you own this now but what what
it says you own this now but what what actually has to happen before like
actually has to happen before like someone is given the authority versus
someone is given the authority versus them actually being able to deliver the
them actually being able to deliver the outcome like what what's that in between
outcome like what what's that in between zone?
zone? Yeah, you own this, right? Great
Yeah, you own this, right? Great sentence. [laughter]
sentence. [laughter] Uh I mean feel is generous and everyone
Uh I mean feel is generous and everyone nods usually, right? But it can mean
nods usually, right? But it can mean four things, right? You do the thinking.
four things, right? You do the thinking. You can make it final. I won't overrule
You can make it final. I won't overrule you without a reason. And you carry what
you without a reason. And you carry what happens. Now, if you only meant the
happens. Now, if you only meant the first one, you do the thinking and they
first one, you do the thinking and they heard all four. That's where it goes
heard all four. That's where it goes sideways. They make a call. You step in
sideways. They make a call. You step in and suddenly you own this
and suddenly you own this meant you do the homework. I'll grade
meant you do the homework. I'll grade it. So, so and if if you only meant uh
it. So, so and if if you only meant uh the first one actually don't be
the first one actually don't be surprised when it comes back, right?
surprised when it comes back, right? Because you are actually the one doing
Because you are actually the one doing the thinking for them. Uh so what I
the thinking for them. Uh so what I would advise everyone like if you're a
would advise everyone like if you're a CEO, say it out loud, right? Which of
CEO, say it out loud, right? Which of those four am I actually handing over?
those four am I actually handing over? And please don't hand over the blame
And please don't hand over the blame without the authority. That's the one
without the authority. That's the one that makes people stop trying and
that makes people stop trying and switching teams and jobs, right? And
switching teams and jobs, right? And pretty good, I mean, good practice is to
pretty good, I mean, good practice is to do it in front of the team because
do it in front of the team because otherwise everybody keeps walking around
otherwise everybody keeps walking around the new person straight to your office,
the new person straight to your office, right? Nobody's being sneaky. It's just
right? Nobody's being sneaky. It's just the route they already know.
the route they already know. Right. Right. Yeah. I think that that's
Right. Right. Yeah. I think that that's a great set of uh principles where you
a great set of uh principles where you add to the you own this message four or
add to the you own this message four or five bullets of what that actually
five bullets of what that actually means. Um and on that topic like uh
means. Um and on that topic like uh there's this I'm sure you've seen this
there's this I'm sure you've seen this out there uh that now the the judgment
out there uh that now the the judgment layer is the thing that we retain as
layer is the thing that we retain as human beings in in the AI era and we're
human beings in in the AI era and we're increasingly delegating work but to this
increasingly delegating work but to this is building on your last point but what
is building on your last point but what is the difference between delegating
is the difference between delegating work versus delegating judgment and
work versus delegating judgment and where do people um I guess mistake like
where do people um I guess mistake like they misinterpret what those things are
they misinterpret what those things are and combine it into on.
and combine it into on. So delegating work I say they do the
So delegating work I say they do the thinking you make it final right and
thinking you make it final right and delegating judgment they make it final
delegating judgment they make it final and you don't overrule without a reason
and you don't overrule without a reason and both are completely fine just know
and both are completely fine just know which one you're doing and say it right
which one you're doing and say it right and here's how you find out which one
and here's how you find out which one you really did wait for the first time
you really did wait for the first time they pick the option you wouldn't have
they pick the option you wouldn't have what you do in the next five minutes
what you do in the next five minutes tells the whole team which one it was
tells the whole team which one it was actually.
actually. Right.
Right. Right. So when a when something presents
Right. So when a when something presents itself that not it's not not how you
itself that not it's not not how you would go forward and then your response
would go forward and then your response to that that's where the team actually
to that that's where the team actually learns
learns uh what's like okay okay that makes
uh what's like okay okay that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that play
sense. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that play out many times and I'm guilty also of
out many times and I'm guilty also of probably responding incorrectly in those
probably responding incorrectly in those first times that that did happen. who
first times that that did happen. who isn't right.
isn't right. Yeah.
Yeah. They that's why it's such a relevant
They that's why it's such a relevant topic and it's even like now it's even
topic and it's even like now it's even on steroids right with AI.
on steroids right with AI. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think also um from what I've observed is a lot
also um from what I've observed is a lot of uh engineering and product teams
of uh engineering and product teams they're moving decision and judgment
they're moving decision and judgment into AI agents and then resurfacing that
into AI agents and then resurfacing that back to a leader or a founding team. Um,
back to a leader or a founding team. Um, I think good teams take the long
I think good teams take the long response and make it concise, but I
response and make it concise, but I think average teams are just dumping the
think average teams are just dumping the long answer back onto a founding team to
long answer back onto a founding team to execute against. Um, and on that on that
execute against. Um, and on that on that topic, like how do you how do you give
topic, like how do you how do you give people freedom to to make decisions,
people freedom to to make decisions, make good judgments, but then not
make good judgments, but then not introduce a whole bunch of bureaucracy
introduce a whole bunch of bureaucracy that would slow down that like once fast
that would slow down that like once fast group of people?
group of people? Yeah. I mean, skip the process manual,
Yeah. I mean, skip the process manual, right? Nobody reads it and the one
right? Nobody reads it and the one person who does becomes insufferable,
person who does becomes insufferable, right? Write down the limits instead.
right? Write down the limits instead. Three questions.
Three questions. What can it cost? Can we undo it? What
What can it cost? Can we undo it? What does it hit? Say it's refunds, right?
does it hit? Say it's refunds, right? For example, I'll give you an example.
For example, I'll give you an example. Small amount, reversible. One customer,
Small amount, reversible. One customer, yours, decided, done. You don't need me.
yours, decided, done. You don't need me. big amount or it sets a precedent for
big amount or it sets a precedent for every other customer. That one comes to
every other customer. That one comes to me inside those limits. It's theirs to
me inside those limits. It's theirs to make final, right? Outside it comes to
make final, right? Outside it comes to you and everyone knows that before they
you and everyone knows that before they start so nobody has to guess, right?
start so nobody has to guess, right? It's clarity and that's honestly it. You
It's clarity and that's honestly it. You don't need a process for every decision,
don't need a process for every decision, right? In big enterprises, large
right? In big enterprises, large enterprises, yes, the process is
enterprises, yes, the process is helpful, right? and you need it, but you
helpful, right? and you need it, but you need a clear line for when one comes to
need a clear line for when one comes to you. People are pretty good at making
you. People are pretty good at making calls once they know where the edges are
calls once they know where the edges are right and constraints right now. Just uh
right and constraints right now. Just uh now I'm curious, what is an elegant way
now I'm curious, what is an elegant way to respond to someone when they they've
to respond to someone when they they've like decided to go a path that you
like decided to go a path that you wouldn't and it's just like the instant
wouldn't and it's just like the instant moment that happens before you've
moment that happens before you've actually processed. What's an elegant
actually processed. What's an elegant way to do that?
way to do that? I mean f first question and you should
I mean f first question and you should be honest with yourself right is it
be honest with yourself right is it wrong or it's just not how I'd have done
wrong or it's just not how I'd have done it right because that's pretty different
it right because that's pretty different like because those feel exactly the same
like because those feel exactly the same in the moment they really aren't right
in the moment they really aren't right is if it's just different let it stand
is if it's just different let it stand right let it go it's ego thing right and
right let it go it's ego thing right and let the team see it stand that's even
let the team see it stand that's even more important right because again what
more important right because again what we mentioned we don't want to train them
we mentioned we don't want to train them just because you overreacted that
just because you overreacted that because if you let team see it stand you
because if you let team see it stand you will empower them right they they will
will empower them right they they will see that you trust them and that does
see that you trust them and that does more for ownership than any workshop
more for ownership than any workshop you'll ever run and all all leaders love
you'll ever run and all all leaders love workshops right so if it's actually
workshops right so if it's actually wrong and you overrule it say why You
wrong and you overrule it say why You did it right out loud because an
did it right out loud because an overrule with no without reason teaches
overrule with no without reason teaches people exactly one thing. Bring me the
people exactly one thing. Bring me the next one. Right. CC me again. Right. So
next one. Right. CC me again. Right. So it's all about these unwritten rules.
it's all about these unwritten rules. So would you say like one one way to
So would you say like one one way to make yourself um more nimble in the
make yourself um more nimble in the moment is like the structure of a
moment is like the structure of a retrospective or review or individual
retrospective or review or individual review or or a workshop. It's like
review or or a workshop. It's like taking away the noise of your day-to-day
taking away the noise of your day-to-day operation, dedicating on this one thing,
operation, dedicating on this one thing, but instead like when I understand and
but instead like when I understand and something that I tried to do in my my
something that I tried to do in my my previous startup is instead take the
previous startup is instead take the moment to respond as if it's a longer
moment to respond as if it's a longer session like so to your point like this
session like so to your point like this is correct. It's not the way I would do
is correct. It's not the way I would do it, but I support it. Right. And I know
it, but I support it. Right. And I know there's been things that have
there's been things that have popularized like uh disagree and commit.
popularized like uh disagree and commit. Um, I think that's like largely been
Um, I think that's like largely been proven very difficult to do in practice.
proven very difficult to do in practice. But instead, like I think what you're
But instead, like I think what you're saying is that
saying is that tell the person, uh, I'm taking a moment
tell the person, uh, I'm taking a moment to think about this path that you've
to think about this path that you've offered like in this decision. It's
offered like in this decision. It's different than my own, but but it's
different than my own, but but it's actually like a good one. Let's see it
actually like a good one. Let's see it play out. Is it that simple? Like is it
play out. Is it that simple? Like is it just that simple and and you can just
just that simple and and you can just say that in Slack and people will say,
say that in Slack and people will say, "Oh, okay. This is great. Like maybe we
"Oh, okay. This is great. Like maybe we can build on this."
can build on this." I mean it's simple to say it right. I
I mean it's simple to say it right. I think the hard part is uh what happens
think the hard part is uh what happens inside of all of us, right? Especially
inside of all of us, right? Especially of really good solo performers or or
of really good solo performers or or founders are the trickiest bunch, right?
founders are the trickiest bunch, right? Of all because uh they're used that
Of all because uh they're used that whole universe
whole universe spins around them, right? And what
spins around them, right? And what happens once they let's say scale,
happens once they let's say scale, especially now with AI, they scale
especially now with AI, they scale overnight, right? they still love to be
overnight, right? they still love to be the center of gravity of this whole
the center of gravity of this whole universe, right? So, it's hard even
universe, right? So, it's hard even though uh again it's all about
though uh again it's all about self-awareness and some people are stuck
self-awareness and some people are stuck in their their own ways but uh it's uh
in their their own ways but uh it's uh really important to drop the ego, right?
really important to drop the ego, right? and to just stop, breathe for a second,
and to just stop, breathe for a second, take a deep breath, and and because
take a deep breath, and and because sometimes there are lessons to be
sometimes there are lessons to be learned from all of this. You're a
learned from all of this. You're a founder, but potentially in actually
founder, but potentially in actually ideal scenario, you're not the smartest
ideal scenario, you're not the smartest person in your company. If you're still
person in your company. If you're still the smartest guy in your company, you
the smartest guy in your company, you haven't hired the right people, right?
haven't hired the right people, right? Uh so obviously what I always tell uh
Uh so obviously what I always tell uh people and CEOs in general and founders
people and CEOs in general and founders as well uh you're paying all these
as well uh you're paying all these people right you hired them for a reason
people right you hired them for a reason so trust them with a decision if you're
so trust them with a decision if you're already paying them hefty amount of
already paying them hefty amount of money and you delegated something
money and you delegated something because you're paying them and deem them
because you're paying them and deem them expert as experts in their field. So
expert as experts in their field. So trust them as decision especially if you
trust them as decision especially if you actually took your time and they made a
actually took your time and they made a good decision just not the way you would
good decision just not the way you would rep it right it's still a good decision
rep it right it's still a good decision and maybe this is a moment for you to
and maybe this is a moment for you to stop and learn and adapt and be better
stop and learn and adapt and be better next time right it's ego thing
next time right it's ego thing yeah no that makes sense so so a
yeah no that makes sense so so a question like so a lot of this does fall
question like so a lot of this does fall on uh the CEO founding team executives
on uh the CEO founding team executives what would you say is a way for getting
what would you say is a way for getting the team involved. So the team is
the team involved. So the team is observing this trend um and there's this
observing this trend um and there's this this like um moment where someone is
this like um moment where someone is being introspective and they realize I'm
being introspective and they realize I'm the problem. It's not coming. How does a
the problem. It's not coming. How does a team then actually surface it up and
team then actually surface it up and say, "Hey, Marco, like I noticed this
say, "Hey, Marco, like I noticed this trend where we're working through a
trend where we're working through a decision or an outcome and you just say
decision or an outcome and you just say do it this way." And you close the door.
do it this way." And you close the door. like how how do you give teams that
like how how do you give teams that power to bring that um to to founders
power to bring that um to to founders that were previously very strong IC's?
that were previously very strong IC's? Well, this this is a topic we could
Well, this this is a topic we could spend hours on, right? This also depends
spend hours on, right? This also depends on the culture, right? As well again for
on the culture, right? As well again for example I am in a global team so I have
example I am in a global team so I have to handle people from different
to handle people from different backgrounds. So here the culture part
backgrounds. So here the culture part comes in right I'll give you an example
comes in right I'll give you an example India for example or China right this
India for example or China right this won't happen this is not something that
won't happen this is not something that uh
uh people won't question the authority and
people won't question the authority and hierarchy in the company right so again
hierarchy in the company right so again then you can look at let's say
then you can look at let's say Scandinavia Denmark for example where
Scandinavia Denmark for example where it's completely normal to say stop even
it's completely normal to say stop even though you're just an employee to your
though you're just an employee to your boss us stop I think you're wrong right
boss us stop I think you're wrong right so I think it also there are a lot of
so I think it also there are a lot of factors right with founder business it's
factors right with founder business it's a bit more complicated because nowadays
a bit more complicated because nowadays especially with the rise of personal
especially with the rise of personal branding every founder is a superstar
branding every founder is a superstar and Alex Hermosi right uh so everyone is
and Alex Hermosi right uh so everyone is in a way afraid and they're walking on
in a way afraid and they're walking on tiptoes right around the person so it
tiptoes right around the person so it might be hard but I would Okay,
might be hard but I would Okay, the best way to do it is to send the
the best way to do it is to send the the most experienced person
the most experienced person uh from the team uh because again trust
uh from the team uh because again trust right trust aspect again the founder
right trust aspect again the founder might trust this person the most and
might trust this person the most and take his opinion as valid and uh again
take his opinion as valid and uh again it depends what kind of person the
it depends what kind of person the founder is. again sometimes
founder is. again sometimes it's an uphill battle and
it's an uphill battle and they people can help themselves right so
they people can help themselves right so it it really depends on the situation
it it really depends on the situation but again uh I think it's important to
but again uh I think it's important to bring it up uh diplomatically and how I
bring it up uh diplomatically and how I always try to approach everything
always try to approach everything explain to the person that we're on the
explain to the person that we're on the same team and if
same team and if you Listen for a second, right? We as a
you Listen for a second, right? We as a whole will be more productive
whole will be more productive resulting
resulting in you having at the end of the day,
in you having at the end of the day, let's say more cash, right? And
let's say more cash, right? And achieving your objectives. It's always
achieving your objectives. It's always important if you are working for a
important if you are working for a strong boss, strong personality who
strong boss, strong personality who sometimes struggle with receiving
sometimes struggle with receiving feedback, right? Because we always speak
feedback, right? Because we always speak about act active listening and
about act active listening and constructive feedback leadership towards
constructive feedback leadership towards down right but this is interesting topic
down right but this is interesting topic that you mentioned this one is reversed
that you mentioned this one is reversed right how to provide
right how to provide feedback constructive feedback to a
feedback constructive feedback to a founder right uh so I think it's just
founder right uh so I think it's just just communication skill right bringing
just communication skill right bringing them uh to the level where they feel we
them uh to the level where they feel we are on the same team and we're working
are on the same team and we're working towards goal of the whole company right
towards goal of the whole company right it's not a personal thing it's not that
it's not a personal thing it's not that we are hurt because you are not
we are hurt because you are not listening to our feedback but we feel we
listening to our feedback but we feel we would be more productive resulting in
would be more productive resulting in better
better company right as a whole right it's
company right as a whole right it's always you have to how I uh actually
always you have to how I uh actually my biggest leap in in career was when I
my biggest leap in in career was when I started
started analyzing objectives of my seniors
analyzing objectives of my seniors and bringing them solutions that are not
and bringing them solutions that are not solving my immediate problems but
solving my immediate problems but theirs.
theirs. Right? So if you know what's your CEO's
Right? So if you know what's your CEO's objective for this year, try to bring
objective for this year, try to bring him solution to his problem, not to your
him solution to his problem, not to your immediate steam problem. Right? That
immediate steam problem. Right? That shows that you're thinking out of the
shows that you're thinking out of the box and that you're actually on the same
box and that you're actually on the same team as him and not just thinking about
team as him and not just thinking about your own butt and your own team, right?
your own butt and your own team, right? Yeah. I think there's a So, like there's
Yeah. I think there's a So, like there's a few I think really good approaches
a few I think really good approaches that you just outlined. I'm just going
that you just outlined. I'm just going to repeat back the ones that I can
to repeat back the ones that I can quickly recall, but one maybe as a
quickly recall, but one maybe as a [clears throat] founder understanding
[clears throat] founder understanding the culture that you're operating in as
the culture that you're operating in as well as your team's cultural background
well as your team's cultural background to your point like people of different
to your point like people of different backgrounds have very different
backgrounds have very different relationships with authority. Um and the
relationships with authority. Um and the other thing that you said I think is
other thing that you said I think is really powerful is that um contribute
really powerful is that um contribute across a broader surface area than your
across a broader surface area than your own like individual problem and you
own like individual problem and you probably will bring down a wall of trust
probably will bring down a wall of trust with your leadership team or or your
with your leadership team or or your founder. And the third thing that hit me
founder. And the third thing that hit me as you were saying it is that
as you were saying it is that you have to put the problem on the other
you have to put the problem on the other side of the table and put yourselves on
side of the table and put yourselves on on one side instead of having opposing
on one side instead of having opposing views and kind of getting Yeah, that's I
views and kind of getting Yeah, that's I think a thing that
think a thing that is sometimes difficult for teams to get
is sometimes difficult for teams to get behind because to your point it is a
behind because to your point it is a high ego environment in a small team and
high ego environment in a small team and then that can just kind of scale up even
then that can just kind of scale up even if you get to 50 100 200 people. So I
if you get to 50 100 200 people. So I think that's really good uh advice you
think that's really good uh advice you just put there on how to make a team
just put there on how to make a team more cohesive around this even if the
more cohesive around this even if the issue is identified by not the leader.
issue is identified by not the leader. So to I'm going to push you now into
So to I'm going to push you now into like uh the it's it's a rapid fire
like uh the it's it's a rapid fire round. I'm going to ask you four
round. I'm going to ask you four questions and in kind of quick
questions and in kind of quick succession if that's okay.
succession if that's okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Um the first one is what's your personal
Um the first one is what's your personal antidote to decision overload?
antidote to decision overload? One question before you open anything.
One question before you open anything. Does this need me or does it just need
Does this need me or does it just need someone? Takes 4 seconds. Saves the
someone? Takes 4 seconds. Saves the afternoon.
That's that's that's an awesome answer.
Um, what's one sentence founders should
Um, what's one sentence founders should stop saying?
stop saying? Just keep me in the loop.
Just keep me in the loop. Because is that FYI or is that don't
Because is that FYI or is that don't move until I reply? Nobody knows, right?
move until I reply? Nobody knows, right? Just keep me in the loop. Including the
Just keep me in the loop. Including the person who said it most of the time,
person who said it most of the time, right? It's like a very powerful vague
right? It's like a very powerful vague micromanagement system statement.
micromanagement system statement. I can I can stand, [laughter]
I can I can stand, [laughter] right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Which uh
right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Which uh which leader has influenced you the most
which leader has influenced you the most on how you think about authority and
on how you think about authority and decision-m?
decision-m? My dad actually. Very simple leadership
My dad actually. Very simple leadership model. He says, "You listen. That's the
model. He says, "You listen. That's the whole framework. No offsite, no
whole framework. No offsite, no workshop, no follow-up email." And to be
workshop, no follow-up email." And to be fair, it was clear, right? Nobody in
fair, it was clear, right? Nobody in your our house was ever confused about
your our house was ever confused about who could make it final. Not for a
who could make it final. Not for a second, right? And I've basic basically
second, right? And I've basic basically spent my whole career trying to keep the
spent my whole career trying to keep the clarity and lose the you listen part.
Yeah, that's a that's a good lesson to
learn, I guess, very early in life, your
learn, I guess, very early in life, your formative years.
formative years. Yeah,
Yeah, there's a twist, right? He became a CEO
there's a twist, right? He became a CEO later in his life as well. So,
later in his life as well. So, Oh, okay. Okay. Nice.
Oh, okay. Okay. Nice. And do you do you two uh speak about
And do you do you two uh speak about this topic now?
this topic now? Uh I mean again my father I grew up in
Uh I mean again my father I grew up in Croatia, right? And my father is my
Croatia, right? And my father is my father is young but it's again we are
father is young but it's again we are such a diff what how I grew as a person
such a diff what how I grew as a person as and as a leader in general was by
as and as a leader in general was by less mimicking what he did great and
less mimicking what he did great and more of improving things that he did
more of improving things that he did wrong. Again, we have amazing
wrong. Again, we have amazing relationship and everything, but I'm
relationship and everything, but I'm always such a critical person and hard
always such a critical person and hard on myself that I always try to observe
on myself that I always try to observe in a way bad behaviors from people that
in a way bad behaviors from people that are around me and learn lessons and
are around me and learn lessons and adapt on my own skin, right? Uh so
adapt on my own skin, right? Uh so that's what I did with him. I was like,
that's what I did with him. I was like, okay, he does all these things good and
okay, he does all these things good and in these things we are pretty aligned
in these things we are pretty aligned because at the end of the day, I'm his
because at the end of the day, I'm his son, right? But what is what does he do
son, right? But what is what does he do bad and wrong and where could he
bad and wrong and where could he improve? I don't want to be my father in
improve? I don't want to be my father in h how he delegates work, right? For
h how he delegates work, right? For example, or brings his work home, right?
example, or brings his work home, right? So these are the most powerful lessons
So these are the most powerful lessons actually I took and applied on myself to
actually I took and applied on myself to be better leader in general. Right? But
be better leader in general. Right? But again, hard work, persistence,
again, hard work, persistence, consistency, just being a good human
consistency, just being a good human being with without judging people based
being with without judging people based by uh by their titles. These are nice
by uh by their titles. These are nice things that I also took away from him.
things that I also took away from him. That's great. I mean, yeah, I I think
That's great. I mean, yeah, I I think evolving through adaptation in your
evolving through adaptation in your environment makes sense. Yeah. Like
environment makes sense. Yeah. Like there's different
there's different different seasons for different styles
different seasons for different styles of leadership. And I think that's a
of leadership. And I think that's a that's also like a very to your point
that's also like a very to your point now we're in this in the season of the
now we're in this in the season of the the observed founder that has like has
the observed founder that has like has superpowers at least outwardly. Um and
superpowers at least outwardly. Um and then internally the operation might be
then internally the operation might be significantly different. So um yeah I
significantly different. So um yeah I think that's a hard thing for people to
think that's a hard thing for people to adapt around. And one last question for
adapt around. And one last question for you with this path you're on now. Um
you with this path you're on now. Um what does success look like for you?
what does success look like for you? When decisions get made while I'm away
When decisions get made while I'm away or you're away and you'd have signed it
or you're away and you'd have signed it every you'd have signed every one of
every you'd have signed every one of them. Bonus points if few are better
them. Bonus points if few are better than you'd have done yourself, right?
So if you gave this um like you
mentioned perhaps after all these
mentioned perhaps after all these conversations and this content and this
conversations and this content and this writing that you do the culminating
writing that you do the culminating piece is a book and if the book um is
piece is a book and if the book um is distributed through audio or little
distributed through audio or little content pieces do you see a a future
content pieces do you see a a future where um it's internalized and companies
where um it's internalized and companies and founders really take a leap and say
and founders really take a leap and say okay this is a framework I can get
okay this is a framework I can get behind and get get out of my own way
behind and get get out of my own way essentially. Yeah, that's that's
essentially. Yeah, that's that's actually the goal because uh again I'm
actually the goal because uh again I'm as an engineer and in a way a scientist,
as an engineer and in a way a scientist, right? I have my computer science degree
right? I have my computer science degree and the plan is actually to
and the plan is actually to do doctorate, right, research on this
do doctorate, right, research on this one because I want to scientifically
one because I want to scientifically uh destroy my framework and false
uh destroy my framework and false assumptions about it, right? And make it
assumptions about it, right? And make it even more bulletproof. Uh now will the
even more bulletproof. Uh now will the book come before that or in the process
book come before that or in the process or afterwards?
or afterwards? We'll see. But yeah, the long-term goal
We'll see. But yeah, the long-term goal is to make it a bulletproof proper
is to make it a bulletproof proper framework that can be actually uh so
framework that can be actually uh so actual leaders can be maybe even
actual leaders can be maybe even certified on it, right? And apply uh uh
certified on it, right? And apply uh uh apply methods uh in their own company
apply methods uh in their own company until then [snorts] more of a consulting
until then [snorts] more of a consulting model, right?
model, right? uh but again I think it's unexplored
uh but again I think it's unexplored topic because everyone nowadays is a
topic because everyone nowadays is a thought leader right scaling
thought leader right scaling expert and so so but uh bottlenecks are
expert and so so but uh bottlenecks are just being exposed on a faster rate with
just being exposed on a faster rate with AI scaling is faster bottlenecks are not
AI scaling is faster bottlenecks are not disappearing overnight they're just
disappearing overnight they're just amplified and more of them are showing
amplified and more of them are showing right with a fast scale with AI. So I
right with a fast scale with AI. So I feel it's an unexplored topic maybe and
feel it's an unexplored topic maybe and a niche that's uh worth uh investing
a niche that's uh worth uh investing your time in especially if you're a
your time in especially if you're a leader or CEO especially a founder.
leader or CEO especially a founder. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree and I think it's
Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree and I think it's like you said if whether you're promoted
like you said if whether you're promoted into the role or you form it on your own
into the role or you form it on your own like in the founders's case it is a
like in the founders's case it is a investment that is probably overlooked
investment that is probably overlooked by every single person which is like how
by every single person which is like how do you actually build because you don't
do you actually build because you don't have time right like you get into this
have time right like you get into this state and then you're just in in motion
state and then you're just in in motion and you don't want to take the time to
and you don't want to take the time to stop except like you said unless someone
stop except like you said unless someone creates a workshop but like that's
creates a workshop but like that's that's not the only answer as you as you
that's not the only answer as you as you workshop won't help you, right? In that
workshop won't help you, right? In that case, right? Because what actually in a
case, right? Because what actually in a way prompted me to to start my research
way prompted me to to start my research on this topic was the ongoing uh
on this topic was the ongoing uh stereotype about CEOs and founders,
stereotype about CEOs and founders, right? You're a founder. You just scaled
right? You're a founder. You just scaled from 20 to 100, let's say, and you're
from 20 to 100, let's say, and you're constantly bitching to your wife, right?
constantly bitching to your wife, right? again. Amit is text texting for the same
again. Amit is text texting for the same thing I delegated to him. Marco, I'm
thing I delegated to him. Marco, I'm paying this guy, right? And he's still
paying this guy, right? And he's still sending messages at midnight ask me,
sending messages at midnight ask me, "Boss, what should I do?" And the thing
"Boss, what should I do?" And the thing is CEOs and founders, they reply to all
is CEOs and founders, they reply to all of these messages, emails, right?
of these messages, emails, right? Because it's faster if they do it,
Because it's faster if they do it, right? It's faster if you're having a
right? It's faster if you're having a family dinner to just pick up the phone,
family dinner to just pick up the phone, give him a solution, and stop with it.
give him a solution, and stop with it. Although you will still have an argument
Although you will still have an argument with your wife for a whole night because
with your wife for a whole night because you pick up the call, right? But my view
you pick up the call, right? But my view is that this is avoidable in a lot of
is that this is avoidable in a lot of situations, right? If you're a founder,
situations, right? If you're a founder, sometimes your opinion at midnight is
sometimes your opinion at midnight is needed, right? If it's really sticky.
needed, right? If it's really sticky. But 90% of these cases are avoidable and
But 90% of these cases are avoidable and people are just
people are just they're just
they're just it's unwritten rules, right? Behaviors
it's unwritten rules, right? Behaviors that you train them, right? They're just
that you train them, right? They're just wanting another set of eyes. Maybe
wanting another set of eyes. Maybe because they feel you don't have trust
because they feel you don't have trust in them. Maybe they're afraid if they
in them. Maybe they're afraid if they make a wrong move, their neck is on the
make a wrong move, their neck is on the line. Maybe just the process doesn't
line. Maybe just the process doesn't work right or there is no process in the
work right or there is no process in the company because you scaled overnight
company because you scaled overnight maybe due to AI right and again as I
maybe due to AI right and again as I mentioned company uh scaled but your
mentioned company uh scaled but your decision system haven't scaled right you
decision system haven't scaled right you don't have right process in the place
don't have right process in the place that's why I got obsessed with this
that's why I got obsessed with this whole thing and I'm trying case by case
whole thing and I'm trying case by case track decision where they move through
track decision where they move through the company why they happen what tests
the company why they happen what tests to do to actually differentiate what's
to do to actually differentiate what's the root cause of the decision coming
the root cause of the decision coming back on your desk and what can we do to
back on your desk and what can we do to solve this if it's your ego I will tell
solve this if it's your ego I will tell you immediately no leadership theater
you immediately no leadership theater right but sometimes it's a process
right but sometimes it's a process sometimes it's a human thing or
sometimes it's a human thing or authority and that's all fixable right
authority and that's all fixable right I think that's a very good uh note to
I think that's a very good uh note to end this conversation on It's all
end this conversation on It's all fixable. I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
fixable. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Yeah. Mo most of it.
Thanks a lot. Yeah. Mo most of it. [laughter] Right. Thanks a lot, Marco.
[laughter] Right. Thanks a lot, Marco. Really appreciate your time today.
Really appreciate your time today. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.
Thank you very much. It was a pleasure. Behind [music] the
Behind [music] the behind the
behind the one [music]
one [music] thing.
thing. Yeah. We build, we build, we build it
Yeah. We build, we build, we build it real behind the [music]