Why Great Products Can Still Lose: April Dunford on Positioning in the Age of AI

Behind the codes.

Behind the codes.

Behind the codes. That's where the future grows.

That's where the future grows. Welcome to Behind the Code with Atomic

Welcome to Behind the Code with Atomic Build. I'm Ait and today we have with us

Build. I'm Ait and today we have with us April Dunford and um a founder can spend

April Dunford and um a founder can spend uh many years building a great product

uh many years building a great product only to discover customers don't

only to discover customers don't understand why they should buy it. Uh or

understand why they should buy it. Uh or worse uh they're comparing the wrong

worse uh they're comparing the wrong alternatives. Today, April Duner is with

alternatives. Today, April Duner is with us and she spent her career helping

us and she spent her career helping technology companies solve that problem.

technology companies solve that problem. Uh, she led marketing at seven

Uh, she led marketing at seven venture-backed companies and authored

venture-backed companies and authored two very influential books, obviously

two very influential books, obviously awesome, and sales pitch. So, we're

awesome, and sales pitch. So, we're going to go beyond the usual positioning

going to go beyond the usual positioning advice in this episode. And, uh, we're

advice in this episode. And, uh, we're going to talk about how founders see

going to talk about how founders see their market, uh, why great products can

their market, uh, why great products can still lose, and what it takes to become

still lose, and what it takes to become the obvious choice for your customers.

the obvious choice for your customers. April, welcome to Behind the Code.

April, welcome to Behind the Code. Hey, it's great to be here. Thanks again

Hey, it's great to be here. Thanks again for for joining today. Um if we can

for for joining today. Um if we can actually start a little bit at at to

actually start a little bit at at to your superhero origin story if that's

your superhero origin story if that's okay. Um

okay. Um my superhero origin story. Yeah. Do you

my superhero origin story. Yeah. Do you know?

know? So I'll give you the origin story. It's

So I'll give you the origin story. It's not there's nothing superhero about it

not there's nothing superhero about it though. Like you know so I

though. Like you know so I um went to school for engineering. Um,

um went to school for engineering. Um, and when I got done my degree, I wasn't

and when I got done my degree, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. And I

really sure what I wanted to do. And I ended up uh landing at a startup. And

ended up uh landing at a startup. And the first job I had was a product

the first job I had was a product marketing job. And that was a really

marketing job. And that was a really long time ago. And you know, people

long time ago. And you know, people complain that nobody knows what product

complain that nobody knows what product marketing is all about now. And I mean,

marketing is all about now. And I mean, back then it was even more confusing.

back then it was even more confusing. Um, but it was a product marketing job

Um, but it was a product marketing job and it was for this company and this

and it was for this company and this company sold a little database. And some

company sold a little database. And some people are like, why would they hire you

people are like, why would they hire you in that if you were in engineering and

in that if you were in engineering and not a marketing degree? And it wasn't

not a marketing degree? And it wasn't unusual back then. Everybody in

unusual back then. Everybody in marketing at tech companies had an

marketing at tech companies had an engineering or computer science

engineering or computer science background. Like the people that did

background. Like the people that did marketing went worked at consumer tech

marketing went worked at consumer tech or consumer products. You know, they

or consumer products. You know, they were selling toothpaste or something.

were selling toothpaste or something. Anyways, I got the job there. Um, that

Anyways, I got the job there. Um, that worked out fairly well. The company got

worked out fairly well. The company got acquired by a big company in San

acquired by a big company in San Francisco or outside of San Francisco.

Francisco or outside of San Francisco. um my boss quit. They made me an

um my boss quit. They made me an executive and I kind of decided, you

executive and I kind of decided, you know, I was a vice president of

know, I was a vice president of marketing and I kind of decided, okay,

marketing and I kind of decided, okay, this is what I do now, marketing thing.

this is what I do now, marketing thing. Um in there, I had done some positioning

Um in there, I had done some positioning work and and you know, I should probably

work and and you know, I should probably use little quotes when I say that cuz we

use little quotes when I say that cuz we didn't really know what we were doing

didn't really know what we were doing was positioning. But that first company,

was positioning. But that first company, we repositioned a product and that was

we repositioned a product and that was really successful. And then

really successful. And then postacquisition, I got assigned a bunch

postacquisition, I got assigned a bunch of products and they were like, "Hey,

of products and they were like, "Hey, reposition these." But I didn't we

reposition these." But I didn't we didn't really know what we were doing.

didn't really know what we were doing. We were kind of fooling around till we

We were kind of fooling around till we got something that worked. And so, um, I

got something that worked. And so, um, I thought, well, I better figure this

thought, well, I better figure this stuff out. And so, I had a bunch of

stuff out. And so, I had a bunch of coffee meetings with smart people and,

coffee meetings with smart people and, uh, went and did a little postgrad

uh, went and did a little postgrad stuff. And I got really interested in

stuff. And I got really interested in this idea of positioning. And not just

this idea of positioning. And not just what positioning was because I mean, you

what positioning was because I mean, you know, even back then positioning it is a

know, even back then positioning it is a concept had been around for a while, but

concept had been around for a while, but I got really obsessed with the idea of

I got really obsessed with the idea of like, how do we actually do positioning?

like, how do we actually do positioning? like can we build a methodology around

like can we build a methodology around that so that we could do it in a

that so that we could do it in a repeatable way and so towards the end of

repeatable way and so towards the end of my career working inhouse that was kind

my career working inhouse that was kind of my specialization like if you hired

of my specialization like if you hired me you hired me because I knew something

me you hired me because I knew something about positioning and we were going to

about positioning and we were going to fix your lousy positioning and then

fix your lousy positioning and then about 12 years ago I made the switch to

about 12 years ago I made the switch to consulting and so um you know it made

consulting and so um you know it made sense for me to focus on that. It took

sense for me to focus on that. It took me a little while to figure out how to

me a little while to figure out how to teach it to people and and do it outside

teach it to people and and do it outside of the company rather than inside the

of the company rather than inside the company and what my value was and all

company and what my value was and all that stuff, but it's been about 12 years

that stuff, but it's been about 12 years now and I've worked with I don't know, I

now and I've worked with I don't know, I lost count, 300, 400 companies,

lost count, 300, 400 companies, something like that.

something like that. Um, and uh, and like you say, wrote a

Um, and uh, and like you say, wrote a couple of books and positioning is sort

couple of books and positioning is sort of my thing. So, yeah, here I am here.

of my thing. So, yeah, here I am here. Thank you for sharing that. And I and

Thank you for sharing that. And I and would you say that you over the last 12

would you say that you over the last 12 years maybe specifically in the first

years maybe specifically in the first year you've run the positioning exercise

year you've run the positioning exercise on yourself like were you like did that

on yourself like were you like did that unfold?

unfold? Yeah like I mean yeah like at the

Yeah like I mean yeah like at the beginning you know and it it it's not

beginning you know and it it it's not intended for positioning a consultant or

intended for positioning a consultant or a person or something but you know the

a person or something but you know the fundamental principles of it apply kind

fundamental principles of it apply kind of everywhere. So there's this idea

of everywhere. So there's this idea that, you know, you want to be the best

that, you know, you want to be the best in the world at something and and that a

in the world at something and and that a certain kind of people care a lot about.

certain kind of people care a lot about. And so at the beginning when I came out

And so at the beginning when I came out of working inhouse, I was like, well,

of working inhouse, I was like, well, maybe I'll go be a fractional CMO or,

maybe I'll go be a fractional CMO or, you know, one of these things that

you know, one of these things that people do when they when they come out.

people do when they when they come out. And my problem with that is the

And my problem with that is the positioning's so bad, right? Like how do

positioning's so bad, right? Like how do you stand out amongst all the other

you stand out amongst all the other fractional CMOs? Like there's tons of

fractional CMOs? Like there's tons of them. And so you could special on a

them. And so you could special on a little niche in the industry or you

little niche in the industry or you could say, "Well, I'm just doing these

could say, "Well, I'm just doing these kinds of companies or I'm just doing

kinds of companies or I'm just doing this kind of thing." And for me, I

this kind of thing." And for me, I thought, you know, having done a couple

thought, you know, having done a couple of those gigs, I thought, well, like

of those gigs, I thought, well, like most of the companies that were hiring

most of the companies that were hiring me, what they want is a full-time CMO.

me, what they want is a full-time CMO. They want a full-time CMO, but they

They want a full-time CMO, but they can't afford a full-time CMO, so they're

can't afford a full-time CMO, so they're making do with this fractional CMO. And

making do with this fractional CMO. And I thought, well, that just felt like bad

I thought, well, that just felt like bad positioning. Anyways, I it wasn't for

positioning. Anyways, I it wasn't for me. And so I kind of decided, well, I'm

me. And so I kind of decided, well, I'm going to have to specialize more than

going to have to specialize more than that. And then if you look at my

that. And then if you look at my positioning, like it's not even it's not

positioning, like it's not even it's not even that I just do positioning with

even that I just do positioning with tech companies. Like it's even more

tech companies. Like it's even more narrow than that. Like I only do B2B

narrow than that. Like I only do B2B tech companies. And even more

tech companies. And even more specifically, part of what we do when

specifically, part of what we do when you work with me is we take the

you work with me is we take the positioning and translate it to a sales

positioning and translate it to a sales page. So there isn't as much value there

page. So there isn't as much value there if you don't have a sales team. And I'm

if you don't have a sales team. And I'm used to working with companies that have

used to working with companies that have a sales team. So it's B2B tech with a

a sales team. So it's B2B tech with a sales team. You have to have been in

sales team. You have to have been in market for a little bit with a little

market for a little bit with a little bit of traction otherwise my stuff

bit of traction otherwise my stuff doesn't work. Um and so the that you

doesn't work. Um and so the that you know the my positioning is very very

know the my positioning is very very tight on a very very small box and I

tight on a very very small box and I think that has worked well for me you

think that has worked well for me you know and I think in general consultants

know and I think in general consultants that that get to that often you know the

that that get to that often you know the rates go up they get well known in the

rates go up they get well known in the space they don't have to work too hard

space they don't have to work too hard on lead generation because they're sort

on lead generation because they're sort of known as the person that does this

of known as the person that does this thing and that's what you want as a

thing and that's what you want as a consultant. So yeah I think it's worked

consultant. So yeah I think it's worked pretty good for me. So there there's a

pretty good for me. So there there's a lot of power there in in narrowing like

lot of power there in in narrowing like your your focus, your field of view.

your your focus, your field of view. Yeah. And I wanted to ask you like for

Yeah. And I wanted to ask you like for founders that are building a company or

founders that are building a company or as you said are in market but are still

as you said are in market but are still finding their way. Um how do they

finding their way. Um how do they distinguish like that great beach head

distinguish like that great beach head or that early advantage in positioning

or that early advantage in positioning versus kind of going down a path that

versus kind of going down a path that might end up lack of better words in a

might end up lack of better words in a dead end,

dead end, right? You know, here's the thing like

right? You know, here's the thing like we we don't always know right at the

we we don't always know right at the beginning. Like we we we generally don't

beginning. Like we we we generally don't know. So what we have in the early days

know. So what we have in the early days of a tech company is a thesis, right?

of a tech company is a thesis, right? And the thesis says, I think this thing

And the thesis says, I think this thing is going to compete with these other

is going to compete with these other guys. Like you say, you know what I

guys. Like you say, you know what I hate? I hate email. So I'm going to make

hate? I hate email. So I'm going to make better email. And so the thesis is, you

better email. And so the thesis is, you know, I'm going to compete against Gmail

know, I'm going to compete against Gmail and Outlook and I'm going to make this

and Outlook and I'm going to make this thing that's different and it's

thing that's different and it's different in this way. I got a thesis

different in this way. I got a thesis and that's going to be valuable for

and that's going to be valuable for these reasons. So I got a thesis on what

these reasons. So I got a thesis on what the value is. And then I got a thesis on

the value is. And then I got a thesis on well the you know it's not going to be

well the you know it's not going to be for everybody but these kind of people

for everybody but these kind of people are really going to like that thing and

are really going to like that thing and therefore this is the slice of the

therefore this is the slice of the market that I'm going to go win and then

market that I'm going to go win and then you build the product according to that

you build the product according to that thesis and then you launch it. So when

thesis and then you launch it. So when you launch it you're either right or

you launch it you're either right or you're not. So the first wave of

you're not. So the first wave of customers is validating the thesis like

customers is validating the thesis like is it attractive in the way that you

is it attractive in the way that you thought it was going to be to the kinds

thought it was going to be to the kinds of customers that you thought it was

of customers that you thought it was going to be attractive for. And often

going to be attractive for. And often what we find is that no like we like

what we find is that no like we like sometimes we get some of it right but we

sometimes we get some of it right but we didn't get all of it right. And so, um,

didn't get all of it right. And so, um, then we have to kind of go back and

then we have to kind of go back and adjust the thesis and say, well, you

adjust the thesis and say, well, you know, I launched this thing and I

know, I launched this thing and I thought it would be really good for I

thought it would be really good for I thought big companies would love it, but

thought big companies would love it, but it turns out it's really hard to get

it turns out it's really hard to get into big companies and it's too much

into big companies and it's too much change management, but smaller companies

change management, but smaller companies actually really love it for a different

actually really love it for a different reason and they're easier to sell to and

reason and they're easier to sell to and blah blah blah blah. And then you got to

blah blah blah blah. And then you got to go adjust the thesis. And so

go adjust the thesis. And so most of the companies that I work with

most of the companies that I work with like in the early days they had that

like in the early days they had that thesis and they were doing that proving

thesis and they were doing that proving that thesis out in the first wave but

that thesis out in the first wave but maybe not consciously right like they

maybe not consciously right like they maybe didn't have the positioning

maybe didn't have the positioning written down but they were like oh you

written down but they were like oh you know we thought this was going to be

know we thought this was going to be easy it turns out no we got to sell over

easy it turns out no we got to sell over here and then they adjust and they go

here and then they adjust and they go um so I think there's a lot of value in

um so I think there's a lot of value in say documenting the thesis and saying

say documenting the thesis and saying this is what we think these are our

this is what we think these are our assumptions on the positioning now we're

assumptions on the positioning now we're going to launch and say oh we thought it

going to launch and say oh we thought it was these kind of people would love It

was these kind of people would love It turns out these kind of people we

turns out these kind of people we thought the value was this, turns out

thought the value was this, turns out the value is this. Um, and then at some

the value is this. Um, and then at some point we get to where we kind of get it,

point we get to where we kind of get it, right? Like we say, okay, now I I've

right? Like we say, okay, now I I've kind of proven a thesis now. Like I've

kind of proven a thesis now. Like I've if I got to go sell 10 clients this

if I got to go sell 10 clients this week, I kind of know who they are and

week, I kind of know who they are and what they look like and I know, you

what they look like and I know, you know, who I'm going to beat and who's up

know, who I'm going to beat and who's up against me and all that stuff. And then

against me and all that stuff. And then I can tighten up that positioning and

I can tighten up that positioning and then go run at that.

then go run at that. So a question for you. Um what what do

So a question for you. Um what what do you do in the event or what advice do

you do in the event or what advice do you give in the event where you've hit

you give in the event where you've hit reality in the market but the leadership

reality in the market but the leadership team says let's deny the reality for a

team says let's deny the reality for a while and keep going on our original

while and keep going on our original thesis. Oh, it happens all the time,

thesis. Oh, it happens all the time, right?

right? Happens all the time. And in fact, you

Happens all the time. And in fact, you know where you see it more often is,

know where you see it more often is, yeah, and this is probably just the kind

yeah, and this is probably just the kind of companies that I get, right? Because

of companies that I get, right? Because I don't work a lot with like brand new

I don't work a lot with like brand new tech companies that have just launched,

tech companies that have just launched, but you'll see it a lot with companies

but you'll see it a lot with companies where they launched with the thesis,

where they launched with the thesis, right? And and then they figured it out

right? And and then they figured it out and then off they go to the races and

and then off they go to the races and now they're 5 million revenue, 10

now they're 5 million revenue, 10 million revenue, maybe 20, 30 million

million revenue, maybe 20, 30 million revenue. And then all of a sudden things

revenue. And then all of a sudden things change. And so they've got maybe they

change. And so they've got maybe they have copycat competitor has showed up in

have copycat competitor has showed up in the market or um they had competitors in

the market or um they had competitors in the market. They were very

the market. They were very differentiated but those competitors

differentiated but those competitors have been catching up catching up

have been catching up catching up catching up slowly over time and now all

catching up slowly over time and now all of a sudden their differentiation

of a sudden their differentiation doesn't exist as much as it did

doesn't exist as much as it did previously. Or you got something happens

previously. Or you got something happens in the market like there's some big tech

in the market like there's some big tech shift like we see with AI right now. Big

shift like we see with AI right now. Big tech shift in AI. Your thing isn't the

tech shift in AI. Your thing isn't the new hotness anymore. or there's some

new hotness anymore. or there's some weird competitors coming out of nowhere

weird competitors coming out of nowhere fighting against you. Now, you're going

fighting against you. Now, you're going to have to shift the positioning and

to have to shift the positioning and often what you'll see is companies that

often what you'll see is companies that hang on to the existing positioning even

hang on to the existing positioning even though there's clear signal that it's

though there's clear signal that it's not working anymore and there's a

not working anymore and there's a reluctance to shift because everybody's

reluctance to shift because everybody's been so comfortable with the thing

been so comfortable with the thing that's gotten them to where they are

that's gotten them to where they are right now. I see a lot of that. Um,

right now. I see a lot of that. Um, yeah. And so, here's the thing. If we

yeah. And so, here's the thing. If we built the positioning and we didn't do

built the positioning and we didn't do it with any kind of a process, then how

it with any kind of a process, then how do we know when it's no good?

do we know when it's no good? We don't because we just vibed our way

We don't because we just vibed our way into this situation in the first place.

into this situation in the first place. Yeah.

Yeah. So, we just kind of like said, well, you

So, we just kind of like said, well, you know, according to me, like I feel like

know, according to me, like I feel like this is how it should be. You know, it's

this is how it should be. You know, it's just our opinions. Whereas, if we're

just our opinions. Whereas, if we're following a process, we can get to a

following a process, we can get to a point where we say, okay, okay, a lot of

point where we say, okay, okay, a lot of stuff has changed. um let's run through

stuff has changed. um let's run through the process again and see if everything

the process again and see if everything still holds. So let's say we let's say

still holds. So let's say we let's say we're using my process right we started

we're using my process right we started out with okay if we didn't exist who

out with okay if we didn't exist who what would a customer do so these are my

what would a customer do so these are my competitors then I can look at well what

competitors then I can look at well what makes me different what's my

makes me different what's my differentiated capabilities and then I

differentiated capabilities and then I can translate that into value and say

can translate that into value and say okay my differentiated value is this if

okay my differentiated value is this if my differentiated value is this then

my differentiated value is this then therefore these kind of people are going

therefore these kind of people are going to love me therefore this is the market

to love me therefore this is the market I'm going to go in now then we have all

I'm going to go in now then we have all kinds of things happen in the market and

kinds of things happen in the market and then then we go back and we do it again

then then we go back and we do it again and then we say look okay if we didn't

and then we say look okay if we didn't exist what would customers customers do.

exist what would customers customers do. Maybe that competitive landscape is new.

Maybe that competitive landscape is new. Like maybe it's a different answer than

Like maybe it's a different answer than what we got before. And then we say,

what we got before. And then we say, "Okay, well, what have we got that they

"Okay, well, what have we got that they don't have differentiated capabilities

don't have differentiated capabilities wise?" And we look at that and that

wise?" And we look at that and that might have shifted. Again, we might have

might have shifted. Again, we might have had somebody catch up to us or there's

had somebody catch up to us or there's some new things or whatever. And then we

some new things or whatever. And then we go to the value and say, "What is the

go to the value and say, "What is the value that we can deliver that no one

value that we can deliver that no one else can?" And if that's different, then

else can?" And if that's different, then hello, the positioning needs to change.

hello, the positioning needs to change. Yeah. Yeah. No, no kidding. Right. we're

Yeah. Yeah. No, no kidding. Right. we're not like we're messaging the wrong thing

not like we're messaging the wrong thing or whatever. And if that's changed, then

or whatever. And if that's changed, then we may even have to change what our

we may even have to change what our definition of a good fit customer is,

definition of a good fit customer is, right? Because we say, "Okay, well,

right? Because we say, "Okay, well, okay, now our value is this. We're the

okay, now our value is this. We're the only ones that could deliver this

only ones that could deliver this value." And then you say, "Well, who

value." And then you say, "Well, who cares about that? Maybe it's somebody

cares about that? Maybe it's somebody different than it was two years ago or a

different than it was two years ago or a year ago." This is the advantage of

year ago." This is the advantage of doing it with a process. If we don't

doing it with a process. If we don't have a process, then, you know, it's my

have a process, then, you know, it's my opinion versus the CEO's opinion versus

opinion versus the CEO's opinion versus the head of sales opinion. Like, we

the head of sales opinion. Like, we don't know. And the only thing we've got

don't know. And the only thing we've got is okay. Well, let's shift it and test

is okay. Well, let's shift it and test it. Good luck with that. Right. You

it. Good luck with that. Right. You might get it right, you might not.

might get it right, you might not. Yeah. I think you can uh like burn quite

Yeah. I think you can uh like burn quite a bit of opportunities across that

a bit of opportunities across that method without structuring

method without structuring and you can turn around on that for a

and you can turn around on that for a really long time and do nothing but lose

really long time and do nothing but lose money,

money, right? And and building on that point

right? And and building on that point like so a product team might um see like

like so a product team might um see like the competitor might be customers could

the competitor might be customers could be building something uh with AI to

be building something uh with AI to displace like a feature or or their

displace like a feature or or their product. Marketing might be worried

product. Marketing might be worried about dominating on LinkedIn and social

about dominating on LinkedIn and social proof. That's right.

proof. That's right. And then sales might actually see the

And then sales might actually see the the short list in customer like

the short list in customer like interactions.

interactions. Where does the leadership team like how

Where does the leadership team like how do they figure out which version of

do they figure out which version of reality to kind of push into?

reality to kind of push into? Yeah. Yeah. So this is this is

Yeah. Yeah. So this is this is particularly hard right now like

particularly hard right now like whenever we go through a big you know a

whenever we go through a big you know a big big change in the market. We saw the

big big change in the market. We saw the same thing in the shift to cloud

same thing in the shift to cloud although not as extreme right or the

although not as extreme right or the shift to doing stuff on mobile like

shift to doing stuff on mobile like we've seen shifts like this before

we've seen shifts like this before although I think AI is you know its own

although I think AI is you know its own extreme example right

extreme example right but when there's a big shift in the

but when there's a big shift in the market then we then we get you know

market then we then we get you know customers kind of leaning back and

customers kind of leaning back and saying well wait a second you know maybe

saying well wait a second you know maybe there's an entirely new way to do this

there's an entirely new way to do this or we'll get this flood of competitors

or we'll get this flood of competitors coming in with a completely different

coming in with a completely different approach to the problem.

approach to the problem. Mh. Um and so in that situation we have

Mh. Um and so in that situation we have to be really careful because

to be really careful because often when there's a big shift in

often when there's a big shift in technology we as people in the tech

technology we as people in the tech industry are often ahead of where our

industry are often ahead of where our customers are at. Not always and not

customers are at. Not always and not always but often we're ahead of where

always but often we're ahead of where the customers are at. And so we have to

the customers are at. And so we have to be very careful that we are not

be very careful that we are not positioning ahead of where the customer

positioning ahead of where the customer is currently thinking. So so right now

is currently thinking. So so right now in AI for example um I'm thinking about

in AI for example um I'm thinking about company I worked with this is about a

company I worked with this is about a year ago um and they make stuff for IT

year ago um and they make stuff for IT teams and you know and and we're going

teams and you know and and we're going in to do this workshop and so I'm asking

in to do this workshop and so I'm asking the question if you didn't exist what

the question if you didn't exist what would a customer do and the the head of

would a customer do and the the head of product said they'd vibe code it. They

product said they'd vibe code it. They code it,

code it, right?

right? And and there was another guy, they had

And and there was another guy, they had done an acquisition, and there was

done an acquisition, and there was another guy in the room who was was the

another guy in the room who was was the ex CEO of this acquisition, but product

ex CEO of this acquisition, but product guy, and he said, "No, they wouldn't

guy, and he said, "No, they wouldn't even vibe code it. They would just use

even vibe code it. They would just use Claude. They just do it in Clawude. They

Claude. They just do it in Clawude. They don't even need a vibe coding tool. They

don't even need a vibe coding tool. They just do it with Claude."

just do it with Claude." And you know, and so we're having this

And you know, and so we're having this discussion and the head of sales is

discussion and the head of sales is sitting on the other side of the room

sitting on the other side of the room going, "Are you kidding me?

going, "Are you kidding me? I've never heard anyone, this has never

I've never heard anyone, this has never come up in a sales call. No one has ever

come up in a sales call. No one has ever said, "Oh, maybe I'm just going to do

said, "Oh, maybe I'm just going to do this with Claude," or, "Oh, maybe I'm

this with Claude," or, "Oh, maybe I'm going to use Replet or something to vibe

going to use Replet or something to vibe code this thing." This has never come

code this thing." This has never come up. And and the head of product gives

up. And and the head of product gives the response that you would fully expect

the response that you would fully expect your head of product to to give, which

your head of product to to give, which is which is not yet. Not yet,

is which is not yet. Not yet, but it's coming.

but it's coming. Right

Right now, here, so here we've got a

now, here, so here we've got a situation, right? in this situation,

situation, right? in this situation, I I we've got to make some choices. So,

I I we've got to make some choices. So, I've got essentially inside the company

I've got essentially inside the company a thesis that says people are going to

a thesis that says people are going to be able to vibe code some of this stuff

be able to vibe code some of this stuff in the future.

in the future. Mhm.

Mhm. And so, your head of product is busy

And so, your head of product is busy building a product strategy to combat

building a product strategy to combat that. You know, in this case, they're

that. You know, in this case, they're actually incorporating some vibe coding

actually incorporating some vibe coding things so that if people want to vibe

things so that if people want to vibe code, they could do it within the

code, they could do it within the context of their own product, for

context of their own product, for example. Um, but there was some

example. Um, but there was some discussion about, you know, they could

discussion about, you know, they could pivot into a slightly different space

pivot into a slightly different space that would be very very difficult to do

that would be very very difficult to do to vibe code in there at all and blah

to vibe code in there at all and blah blah blah. So, there's this product

blah blah. So, there's this product discussion about we see vibe coding

discussion about we see vibe coding coming down the track for our space and

coming down the track for our space and what are we going to do about it and

what are we going to do about it and that's good. You want product doing

that's good. You want product doing that. But over in marketing and sales,

that. But over in marketing and sales, we have the reality of where the

we have the reality of where the customer is at right now. Really where

customer is at right now. Really where the customer is at right now is they're

the customer is at right now is they're not doing that. They don't know anything

not doing that. They don't know anything about it.

about it. Doesn't come up. Have never lost a deal

Doesn't come up. Have never lost a deal to it. So, do we really want to walk

to it. So, do we really want to walk into those sales conversations and say,

into those sales conversations and say, "Hey, let me tell you why you you you

"Hey, let me tell you why you you you this is better than vibe coding." You

this is better than vibe coding." You know what you just did? You've killed

know what you just did? You've killed your deal. You've killed your deal. The

your deal. You've killed your deal. The customer is now going to What? What?

customer is now going to What? What? What's vibe coding? What? Spell it.

What's vibe coding? What? Spell it. Spell it. R E P L. Oh, and now I got to

Spell it. R E P L. Oh, and now I got to go back to my research phase and go back

go back to my research phase and go back and research a bunch of things and

and research a bunch of things and figure out. Of course, we don't want to

figure out. Of course, we don't want to do this, right? We are not going to

do this, right? We are not going to introduce a competitor that the customer

introduce a competitor that the customer has not even considered. So, we had to

has not even considered. So, we had to be very careful about not getting too

be very careful about not getting too far out over our skis on this stuff. We

far out over our skis on this stuff. We got a position for the actual

got a position for the actual competitors we've got in a market right

competitors we've got in a market right now. Now, everything's changing. Oh my

now. Now, everything's changing. Oh my gosh, it's changing so fast. And people

gosh, it's changing so fast. And people come and say, "Well, we can't do that,

come and say, "Well, we can't do that, April, because next week there might be

April, because next week there might be something else." And I'm like, "Yeah,

something else." And I'm like, "Yeah, and guess what? We don't know what it

and guess what? We don't know what it is."

is." Mhm.

Mhm. Right. So the best we can do is position

Right. So the best we can do is position the thing we have now against the

the thing we have now against the competitors we have now for the buyers

competitors we have now for the buyers that are buying right now and be very

that are buying right now and be very very ready to shift that positioning

very ready to shift that positioning when and if the customers start

when and if the customers start shifting. So what becomes super

shifting. So what becomes super important when we have a situation like

important when we have a situation like this becomes super important that we

this becomes super important that we understand where customers are at. So,

understand where customers are at. So, like the CEO of this company says to me,

like the CEO of this company says to me, he's like, "But what do we do?" Like,

he's like, "But what do we do?" Like, like what if the customers just flip the

like what if the customers just flip the switch and one day they're not doing

switch and one day they're not doing vibe coding and the next day they are?

vibe coding and the next day they are? And I'm like, "They're selling to big

And I'm like, "They're selling to big enterprises." That's not how that works.

enterprises." That's not how that works. What happens in a big enterprise is we

What happens in a big enterprise is we mess around with stuff for a while and

mess around with stuff for a while and then it's a threat.

then it's a threat. Right. Right. Right. So if you have a

Right. Right. Right. So if you have a customer advisory board or deep customer

customer advisory board or deep customer relationships with a handful of

relationships with a handful of customers or you're doing deep win loss

customers or you're doing deep win loss analysis, you will know that that is

analysis, you will know that that is coming

coming before it actually starts hurting you in

before it actually starts hurting you in sales meetings. And so for that reason,

sales meetings. And so for that reason, what I recommend is you're doing a very

what I recommend is you're doing a very regular positioning check-in. And so

regular positioning check-in. And so maybe that positioning check-in is

maybe that positioning check-in is happening once a quarter. You're getting

happening once a quarter. You're getting sales, marketing, product, everybody

sales, marketing, product, everybody together and say, "What are we seeing

together and say, "What are we seeing out there? Are we starting to see divide

out there? Are we starting to see divide coding thing show up a little bit now or

coding thing show up a little bit now or not? Do we think they're testing stuff

not? Do we think they're testing stuff internally or messing around with it in

internally or messing around with it in a sandbox or something's happening?

a sandbox or something's happening? Where exactly are we at? And so again,

Where exactly are we at? And so again, we we need to be very careful. we're not

we we need to be very careful. we're not stretching ourselves out so that we're

stretching ourselves out so that we're way ahead of the customer, you know,

way ahead of the customer, you know, because the the worst thing that will

because the the worst thing that will happen is we'll we'll stall the deal

happen is we'll we'll stall the deal because the customer feels like they

because the customer feels like they haven't done their homework and they've

haven't done their homework and they've got to go do their homework or like even

got to go do their homework or like even if we don't mention the competitor and

if we don't mention the competitor and we say, "Oh, we got this amazing thing,

we say, "Oh, we got this amazing thing, man. We got this amazing thing. It's

man. We got this amazing thing. It's coming in two years. It's great. Let me

coming in two years. It's great. Let me tell you all about it." You know,

tell you all about it." You know, what we'll get in that situation is the

what we'll get in that situation is the customer just says, "Great. That's

customer just says, "Great. That's awesome. Come back in two years when you

awesome. Come back in two years when you have it."

have it." Right? You know, so that old boss mind

Right? You know, so that old boss mind used to say, "Look, we can only sell

used to say, "Look, we can only sell what's on the truck."

And this is kind of and it's hard,

right? It's hard when the market's

right? It's hard when the market's really noisy. Everybody's talking about

really noisy. Everybody's talking about stuff. And a lot of that noise is not

stuff. And a lot of that noise is not aimed at customers. It's aimed at

aimed at customers. It's aimed at investors.

investors. And with investors, you can lean really

And with investors, you can lean really hard into future vision. If I'm going to

hard into future vision. If I'm going to raise money, I could talk about all

raise money, I could talk about all kinds of cool [ __ ] that's coming 5 years

kinds of cool [ __ ] that's coming 5 years from now, 10 years from now, all the

from now, 10 years from now, all the stuff that's happening. But in actual

stuff that's happening. But in actual deals with an actual customer, you might

deals with an actual customer, you might want to give them a little bit of

want to give them a little bit of visibility into the road map, so they

visibility into the road map, so they think you're doing cool stuff or

think you're doing cool stuff or whatever, but they ain't paying today's

whatever, but they ain't paying today's dollars for tomorrow's promises. Like

dollars for tomorrow's promises. Like they want to know like why is this worth

they want to know like why is this worth money right now? Like what's the value

money right now? Like what's the value I'm going to get right now if I give you

I'm going to get right now if I give you today's money? So teams have to be uh

today's money? So teams have to be uh very I guess cognizant that there's a

very I guess cognizant that there's a thin line where you could like approach

thin line where you could like approach maybe proactively and confuse your your

maybe proactively and confuse your your buyer maybe significantly and lose

buyer maybe significantly and lose sales. Um and then I guess the other

sales. Um and then I guess the other side of that is staying very close where

side of that is staying very close where you're not totally reactive and you miss

you're not totally reactive and you miss the the boat where there there's a shift

the the boat where there there's a shift and you start losing.

and you start losing. There's a shift and you missed it

There's a shift and you missed it because you never checked in. Like

because you never checked in. Like sometimes what you'll get is this shift

sometimes what you'll get is this shift happens and sales knows but nobody ever

happens and sales knows but nobody ever talks to sales.

talks to sales. Right. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Right. So you're losing these deals and

Right. So you're losing these deals and marketing doesn't know cuz they're not

marketing doesn't know cuz they're not doing win loss analysis. Product doesn't

doing win loss analysis. Product doesn't know because you know they're involved

know because you know they're involved in some deals or whatever. But you know

in some deals or whatever. But you know unless it's some big monster deal that

unless it's some big monster deal that you lost. If you've got a reasonable

you lost. If you've got a reasonable volume of deals you won't hear about it,

volume of deals you won't hear about it, right? So,

right? So, and then what you'll get is like all of

and then what you'll get is like all of a sudden you they you start losing all

a sudden you they you start losing all kinds of deals and then everybody in

kinds of deals and then everybody in market is like what happened and sales

market is like what happened and sales is like yeah man you like this been

is like yeah man you like this been going on for like eight months and

going on for like eight months and you're like what

you're like what this is what I'm saying when we need the

this is what I'm saying when we need the positioning check-in if we were having

positioning check-in if we were having that check-in every quarter then we

that check-in every quarter then we know. So in in part of your work, do you

know. So in in part of your work, do you create the environment where that

create the environment where that becomes a natural behavior where maybe

becomes a natural behavior where maybe you come in and you don't see it like

you come in and you don't see it like it's it's not there and then eventually

it's it's not there and then eventually like deploying this process, it becomes

like deploying this process, it becomes a natural occurrence for teams to

a natural occurrence for teams to actually do the check-in, have more

actually do the check-in, have more communic

communic like like look like I'm like the person

like like look like I'm like the person that leads the horse to water.

that leads the horse to water. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the horse has to drink it. Yeah. Right.

horse has to drink it. Yeah. Right. Like my dudes, here's what I recommend

Like my dudes, here's what I recommend you do. But you know, unless I'm there

you do. But you know, unless I'm there as an employee, I can't show up every

as an employee, I can't show up every quarter and go, "Hello, have you done

quarter and go, "Hello, have you done your positioning check-in?"

your positioning check-in?" Sure.

Sure. It's your mother calling.

It's your mother calling. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that call was certainly start

mean, that call was certainly start companies that I've worked with do do

companies that I've worked with do do it. I'm sure there's lots that don't,

it. I'm sure there's lots that don't, but that's my recommendation and that's

but that's my recommendation and that's all I can do. I'm like, this is my

all I can do. I'm like, this is my recommendation. I mean, you have a, you

recommendation. I mean, you have a, you know, companies I work with, they got

know, companies I work with, they got hundreds of people who have actual jobs

hundreds of people who have actual jobs to do stuff like this. I'm just there to

to do stuff like this. I'm just there to tell you what I think best practices

tell you what I think best practices are. You can choose to ignore my advice

are. You can choose to ignore my advice at any moment.

at any moment. Yeah. Yeah. No asterisk that says at

Yeah. Yeah. No asterisk that says at your own peril, right?

your own peril, right? Well, I tell them, right, we have these

Well, I tell them, right, we have these conversations, but when I was in house

conversations, but when I was in house working inhouse, um I was always working

working inhouse, um I was always working on um enterprise software and I never

on um enterprise software and I never felt like we needed to do it quarterly.

felt like we needed to do it quarterly. So everywhere where I was working, we

So everywhere where I was working, we were doing every six months. But if I

were doing every six months. But if I was in a company right now where there

was in a company right now where there was a lot of threat from AI native stuff

was a lot of threat from AI native stuff or I was an AI native tool and I'm

or I was an AI native tool and I'm trying to take out a SAS business, I

trying to take out a SAS business, I would probably be doing it quarterly

would probably be doing it quarterly because it's like you say like we have

because it's like you say like we have never been in a spot like this where

never been in a spot like this where things are changing so quickly in a

things are changing so quickly in a market. I would air on the side of being

market. I would air on the side of being extra cautious and I probably do four

extra cautious and I probably do four check-ins a year. It's not much of an

check-ins a year. It's not much of an effort to go do it. just get a little

effort to go do it. just get a little little sub team together and usually I

little sub team together and usually I do these things in an hour bring

do these things in an hour bring everybody okay competitors are we seeing

everybody okay competitors are we seeing anything differentiators

anything differentiators has anything changed value is it the

has anything changed value is it the same good see you in three months

same good see you in three months yeah no that it makes a lot of sense

yeah no that it makes a lot of sense because I mean you see a shift even uh

because I mean you see a shift even uh now VCs are publicly um encouraging

now VCs are publicly um encouraging product strategy for incoming like

product strategy for incoming like startups that they want to invest in

startups that they want to invest in like they're kind of saying this is how

like they're kind of saying this is how you should see the market and we're very

you should see the market and we're very interested I think why combinator does a

interested I think why combinator does a huge effort in in this area where

huge effort in in this area where they're shaping the next gen of of

they're shaping the next gen of of companies. Um, so if you're an existing

companies. Um, so if you're an existing company, the the check-in I I think I

company, the the check-in I I think I totally agree three months at the very

totally agree three months at the very least should be top of mind.

least should be top of mind. Yeah. Thing is like we need enough data

Yeah. Thing is like we need enough data to be able to tell that there's a shift.

to be able to tell that there's a shift. Right. Right. So, you know, if I was

Right. Right. So, you know, if I was trying to do it every week,

trying to do it every week, I don't have enough of data,

I don't have enough of data, but you know, and if I don't have a

but you know, and if I don't have a decent volume of deals and maybe three

decent volume of deals and maybe three months is maybe three three months

months is maybe three three months doesn't give me enough.

doesn't give me enough. Yeah, I guess if you have a long sales

Yeah, I guess if you have a long sales cycle, that's a very good point.

cycle, that's a very good point. You got a long sales cycle, you're not

You got a long sales cycle, you're not doing a big volume of deals. Like again,

doing a big volume of deals. Like again, all the companies I ever worked with, we

all the companies I ever worked with, we do it every six months and that worked

do it every six months and that worked pretty good. But we were never in the

pretty good. But we were never in the middle of a shift like this.

middle of a shift like this. Right. Right. Yeah. Definitely. So, if

Right. Right. Yeah. Definitely. So, if it was me right now, I'd be doing it

it was me right now, I'd be doing it every quarter until I decided maybe

every quarter until I decided maybe every quarter was too often, but I'd be

every quarter was too often, but I'd be I'd be waking up in the middle of the

I'd be waking up in the middle of the night worried about this thing.

night worried about this thing. Yeah. Yeah. I I think Yeah. I think a

Yeah. Yeah. I I think Yeah. I think a lot a lot of executive teams are. Yeah.

lot a lot of executive teams are. Yeah. Yeah. This shift has definitely

Yeah. This shift has definitely contributed to the loss.

contributed to the loss. There's a lot of lot the sands are

There's a lot of lot the sands are shifting, man, in a lot of unexpected

shifting, man, in a lot of unexpected ways. And so I think there's value in

ways. And so I think there's value in being um overly cautious like to really

being um overly cautious like to really keep your eye on the shift. Like the

keep your eye on the shift. Like the other thing I would be doing like if it

other thing I would be doing like if it was me right now is I would be over

was me right now is I would be over rotating on

rotating on systematic customer check-in like

systematic customer check-in like whatever that is. Like I think it's that

whatever that is. Like I think it's that like there's never been a better time to

like there's never been a better time to have a customer advisory board if you

have a customer advisory board if you don't have one because the only way

don't have one because the only way you're really going to be able to get

you're really going to be able to get inside target buyers head is to have

inside target buyers head is to have some kind of regular feedback from

some kind of regular feedback from customers. And so customer advisory

customers. And so customer advisory board would be a good thing to do right

board would be a good thing to do right now. Systematized win loss analysis

now. Systematized win loss analysis which a lot of companies don't do. Even

which a lot of companies don't do. Even if you do win analysis, like loss

if you do win analysis, like loss analysis is often kind of hard and often

analysis is often kind of hard and often gives you weird signal, but win

gives you weird signal, but win analysis, super important. You know,

analysis, super important. You know, tell me what you were doing before, why

tell me what you were doing before, why did you decide to do something new?

did you decide to do something new? Who'd you put on the short list? Who

Who'd you put on the short list? Who fell off of the short list before we

fell off of the short list before we even got to you? You picked us. Why'd

even got to you? You picked us. Why'd you pick us? But you didn't pick the

you pick us? But you didn't pick the other guys, why not them? Like that kind

other guys, why not them? Like that kind of stuff. Like it's easy enough to do.

of stuff. Like it's easy enough to do. Like you can like win analysis really

Like you can like win analysis really easy because you just closed the deal.

easy because you just closed the deal. You're about to do the handoff to

You're about to do the handoff to customer service. It could be the thing

customer service. It could be the thing that you do before in the first call

that you do before in the first call with customer service when you're

with customer service when you're setting them up for support. Like super

setting them up for support. Like super easy to do and a lot of good information

easy to do and a lot of good information comes out of those. Um the other one

comes out of those. Um the other one that I think is is easy that I'm

that I think is is easy that I'm surprised more companies don't do, a lot

surprised more companies don't do, a lot of big companies do this is this um

of big companies do this is this um executive relationship thing. So,

executive relationship thing. So, um, I first saw this when I was really

um, I first saw this when I was really junior and I was working at IBM, but

junior and I was working at IBM, but everybody at IBM above a certain level

everybody at IBM above a certain level gets assigned a handful of accounts and

gets assigned a handful of accounts and it's your responsibility as an executive

it's your responsibility as an executive to do a check-in um, with our

to do a check-in um, with our counterpart at the at the company once a

counterpart at the at the company once a quarter,

quarter, right? So what it meant is that you had

right? So what it meant is that you had three, four companies in your pocket um

three, four companies in your pocket um at any given time that if we were

at any given time that if we were sitting in a room having an argument

sitting in a room having an argument like you know are they ready for this or

like you know are they ready for this or not and is this a thing or not? You

not and is this a thing or not? You could call three companies and everybody

could call three companies and everybody in the room could call three companies

in the room could call three companies and we could have the answer.

and we could have the answer. It's really easy to do and companies

It's really easy to do and companies tend to love it because they feel like

tend to love it because they feel like they've got a relationship with somebody

they've got a relationship with somebody senior at the company. um they don't

senior at the company. um they don't mind jumping on the call once in a while

mind jumping on the call once in a while to have a conversation and then this is

to have a conversation and then this is doesn't take any money like you know I'm

doesn't take any money like you know I'm not I don't have any budget for some big

not I don't have any budget for some big fancy customer advisory board I can just

fancy customer advisory board I can just do that next week I was with a company

do that next week I was with a company um a few months ago and the CMO she had

um a few months ago and the CMO she had done a stint at IBM in the early part of

done a stint at IBM in the early part of her career and she just did it at every

her career and she just did it at every company she went to afterwards whether

company she went to afterwards whether they had it or not she would just have

they had it or not she would just have this handful of um accounts in her

this handful of um accounts in her pocket. And so we we were in a workshop

pocket. And so we we were in a workshop and we were having this argument about

and we were having this argument about compliance and how the and we were

compliance and how the and we were talking about big insurance companies

talking about big insurance companies and we were talking about how does a big

and we were talking about how does a big insurance company think about risk and

insurance company think about risk and compliance. And so you know one side of

compliance. And so you know one side of the room was quite convinced it was one

the room was quite convinced it was one way and the other side of the room was

way and the other side of the room was kind of no it was another way. Somebody

kind of no it was another way. Somebody in the room said, "Well, if I was, you

in the room said, "Well, if I was, you know," and they threw out the name of a

know," and they threw out the name of a company. And he said, "Well, if I was,

company. And he said, "Well, if I was, you know, the CIO at Liberty Mutual, you

you know, the CIO at Liberty Mutual, you know, I would think XYZ." And the head

know, I would think XYZ." And the head of marketing there did this really cool

of marketing there did this really cool move where she would sit there and she

move where she would sit there and she reached over and she picked up her phone

reached over and she picked up her phone and it was really performative. Like she

and it was really performative. Like she went like this, put the phone right in

went like this, put the phone right in front of her face and starts typing

front of her face and starts typing away. And at one point the head of sales

away. And at one point the head of sales got not mad but he looked at her and he

got not mad but he looked at her and he was like what are we keeping you from

was like what are we keeping you from your email or something? And she says

your email or something? And she says she says no I'm texting with the CIO at

she says no I'm texting with the CIO at Liberty Mutual.

Liberty Mutual. Oh that's yeah that's masterful. Yeah

Oh that's yeah that's masterful. Yeah that's awesome.

that's awesome. And that's like a baller move right. So

And that's like a baller move right. So imagine if you had everybody like on the

imagine if you had everybody like on the executive team. You got 8 10 12 people

executive team. You got 8 10 12 people on the executive team and everybody's

on the executive team and everybody's got a handful of those.

got a handful of those. Mhm.

Mhm. Like your conversations about customers

Like your conversations about customers would be really different.

would be really different. Yeah. And it it just deepens your

Yeah. And it it just deepens your relationship and shows you have skin in

relationship and shows you have skin in the game beyond like your deployment.

the game beyond like your deployment. Well, for marketers, it's it's kind of

Well, for marketers, it's it's kind of like, you know, again, if you've ever

like, you know, again, if you've ever done a lot of enterprise stuff, like

done a lot of enterprise stuff, like good marketers tend to have a handful of

good marketers tend to have a handful of companies in their back pocket because

companies in their back pocket because every once in a while you'll be in a

every once in a while you'll be in a total jam where it's like, "Oh my god, I

total jam where it's like, "Oh my god, I I've got this opportunity, but I need to

I've got this opportunity, but I need to do it with a customer or I want to do

do it with a customer or I want to do this thing, but I need a quote from a

this thing, but I need a quote from a customer. Oh, I got to do this thing,

customer. Oh, I got to do this thing, but there should be a customer." And I

but there should be a customer." And I always had a handful in my back pocket

always had a handful in my back pocket where I'd be like, "Buddy, do me a

where I'd be like, "Buddy, do me a solid."

solid." No, I think any size of company could

No, I think any size of company could really benefit from that advice.

really benefit from that advice. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's just

Yeah. Yeah. That's just easy, right? Easy. And And look, when

easy, right? Easy. And And look, when things aren't changing all that much,

things aren't changing all that much, maybe it doesn't matter. But when things

maybe it doesn't matter. But when things are changing really really quick, like

are changing really really quick, like keeping your finger on the pulse of

keeping your finger on the pulse of where the customer is at right now while

where the customer is at right now while they're changing really quickly is kind

they're changing really quickly is kind of a big deal.

of a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. And and they and they also I

Yeah. Yeah. And and they and they also I don't know who said this, but there's

don't know who said this, but there's this idea where you can be broadly

this idea where you can be broadly helpful. So like having these

helpful. So like having these conversations give you an opportunity

conversations give you an opportunity where someone might bring up something

where someone might bring up something that's not just one particular subject

that's not just one particular subject area.

area. Um so I really like that idea of staying

Um so I really like that idea of staying connected with that group.

connected with that group. Um and just on the topic of the the

Um and just on the topic of the the change that's happening, I heard you

change that's happening, I heard you recently say in an interview that if

recently say in an interview that if like an LLM's describing your company

like an LLM's describing your company incorrectly, it's probably just not like

incorrectly, it's probably just not like an AI problem. It might be how the

an AI problem. It might be how the market actually reflects on on your

market actually reflects on on your company and your positioning.

company and your positioning. Um, do you think that it's more

Um, do you think that it's more important to be precise like of your

important to be precise like of your company's positioning since you have

company's positioning since you have less control over how buyers might learn

less control over how buyers might learn about you?

about you? Yeah, but I think that's always been

Yeah, but I think that's always been true. Like I think we've always had, you

true. Like I think we've always had, you know, like there's always been word of

know, like there's always been word of mouth, right, about companies. There's

mouth, right, about companies. There's always been,

always been, you know, the internet's been around a

you know, the internet's been around a long time, so people have had ways to

long time, so people have had ways to like poke around on the internet and do

like poke around on the internet and do things like I do think that like I do

things like I do think that like I do think kind of like an like in the early

think kind of like an like in the early days of SEO there was, you know,

days of SEO there was, you know, everybody tried to game SEO by like

everybody tried to game SEO by like keyword stuff at their homepage and

keyword stuff at their homepage and doing it.

doing it. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, you know, there and there was

And so, you know, there and there was that and then it got harder and harder

that and then it got harder and harder to do because the search engines don't

to do because the search engines don't actually want you to do that, right?

actually want you to do that, right? because yes, they want the the the

because yes, they want the the the response to the query to actually be

response to the query to actually be correct and not because you keyword

correct and not because you keyword stuffed your homepage and you're a rando

stuffed your homepage and you're a rando company that happens to be over rotate

company that happens to be over rotate on SEO. And so, you know, there was kind

on SEO. And so, you know, there was kind of a a glory moment there where you

of a a glory moment there where you could really game that with a bunch of

could really game that with a bunch of tactics and then it got harder and

tactics and then it got harder and harder and harder and it became sort of

harder and harder and it became sort of table stakes. We got to do a little bit

table stakes. We got to do a little bit of SEO, but you know, it was hard to

of SEO, but you know, it was hard to really get an advantage over anybody

really get an advantage over anybody else on that stuff unless you were, you

else on that stuff unless you were, you know, really applying yourself. We are I

know, really applying yourself. We are I feel like we are kind of in the same

feel like we are kind of in the same situation right now that you know if you

situation right now that you know if you decided like you really wanted to you

decided like you really wanted to you really wanted to show up you know

really wanted to show up you know in in uh chat GPT or claude in a very

in in uh chat GPT or claude in a very specific way you know

specific way you know it would be possible to game that right

it would be possible to game that right put a lot of effort on it and game it

put a lot of effort on it and game it and say okay we're going to do this

and say okay we're going to do this thing so we're going to show up and our

thing so we're going to show up and our competitors are not going to show up and

competitors are not going to show up and I think there's a little moment in time

I think there's a little moment in time right now where you could probably do

right now where you could probably do that now every time they put out a new

that now every time they put out a new version or whatever they break some

version or whatever they break some things you know just like in the early

things you know just like in the early days of SEO but but so you know should

days of SEO but but so you know should you go and worry about that I don't know

you go and worry about that I don't know man like I you know I it's still like

man like I you know I it's still like like everybody likes to talk about how

like everybody likes to talk about how high intent these leads are that come

high intent these leads are that come from that come from u you know AI like

from that come from u you know AI like these leads that come from AI are very

these leads that come from AI are very high intent so they tend to tend to

high intent so they tend to tend to close at a much higher rate blah blah

close at a much higher rate blah blah blah Um there's still kind of a small

blah Um there's still kind of a small proportion of the leads that we get.

proportion of the leads that we get. Yeah, I think the search search

Yeah, I think the search search percentage of uh AI is is still very

percentage of uh AI is is still very low. Yeah.

low. Yeah. Yeah, it's still pretty low. Yeah,

Yeah, it's still pretty low. Yeah, still pretty low. So, so you know, is it

still pretty low. So, so you know, is it worth the effort to do all this stuff

worth the effort to do all this stuff and what exactly would that look like

and what exactly would that look like and does it wreck the experience for

and does it wreck the experience for everybody else? You know, in the same

everybody else? You know, in the same way keyword stuffing your thing is. So,

way keyword stuffing your thing is. So, you'd be sitting around thinking about

you'd be sitting around thinking about what are the questions that people are

what are the questions that people are asking and how do I show up in the

asking and how do I show up in the answers to those questions and what are

answers to those questions and what are the sources that the um did the what are

the sources that the um did the what are the sources that the LLMs are really

the sources that the LLMs are really leaning towards and how do I make sure I

leaning towards and how do I make sure I show up there and blah blah blah and I

show up there and blah blah blah and I just kind of feel like you know what

just kind of feel like you know what they're trying to do is give you good

they're trying to do is give you good answers good answers and so if what

answers good answers and so if what they're doing is is mispositioning you

they're doing is is mispositioning you as a product or you aren't showing up

as a product or you aren't showing up and the answers where you should be

and the answers where you should be showing up. You know, aside from the

showing up. You know, aside from the fact that maybe you're not paying

fact that maybe you're not paying attention to any of this AO stuff and

attention to any of this AO stuff and you should be like, you know, the the

you should be like, you know, the the fault is probably in your positioning or

fault is probably in your positioning or the way your messaging works right now

the way your messaging works right now and then, you know, the way the way you

and then, you know, the way the way you show up in the internet right now. Maybe

show up in the internet right now. Maybe you've done a shift, but there's a lot

you've done a shift, but there's a lot of your old positioning is hanging

of your old positioning is hanging around and now you've got this new

around and now you've got this new positioning, but it's not, you know,

positioning, but it's not, you know, it's not updated everywhere and what

it's not updated everywhere and what they're pulling from is all this old

they're pulling from is all this old stuff, right?

stuff, right? Or, you know, maybe you had a bad few

Or, you know, maybe you had a bad few months there with a bad release and

months there with a bad release and everybody was complaining about it and

everybody was complaining about it and internet doesn't go away you know like

internet doesn't go away you know like so I think it's better to just try to

so I think it's better to just try to make sure like you know that what

make sure like you know that what exactly is your differentiated value

exactly is your differentiated value like are you really tight on that do you

like are you really tight on that do you really understand it and is it clear and

really understand it and is it clear and is it clear everywhere you show up if it

is it clear everywhere you show up if it is then I think you're probably okay

is then I think you're probably okay you're maybe not going to show up on

you're maybe not going to show up on every single little thing that you want

every single little thing that you want to but you're probably okay

to but you're probably okay this makes a very strong case back for

this makes a very strong case back for the quarterly check-in

the quarterly check-in quarterly check-in man.

quarterly check-in man. Yeah. Yeah. Like Yeah. Like

Yeah. Yeah. Like Yeah. Like it's because you're you're right. Like

it's because you're you're right. Like there's so much information compiled

there's so much information compiled across like the history of your company.

across like the history of your company. It's almost I don't want to say it's

It's almost I don't want to say it's impossible, but it's difficult to track

impossible, but it's difficult to track every single thing um out there. And

every single thing um out there. And yeah, like I I would love to hear just

yeah, like I I would love to hear just your take on how much of positioning and

your take on how much of positioning and having been in sales myself and early in

having been in sales myself and early in my career, it feels like the main thing

my career, it feels like the main thing we're doing is reducing psychological

we're doing is reducing psychological risk of making a decision more than

risk of making a decision more than anything else.

anything else. Well, that's definitely that's

Well, that's definitely that's definitely a big piece of it. And again,

definitely a big piece of it. And again, really bad when you're in a time of a

really bad when you're in a time of a lot of change. When they're in a time of

lot of change. When they're in a time of a lot of change, you know, you'll get

a lot of change, you know, you'll get some customers will be like, "Well, we

some customers will be like, "Well, we just need to test everything out, right?

just need to test everything out, right? So, we need to there's a lot of new

So, we need to there's a lot of new stuff happening. we just want to, you

stuff happening. we just want to, you know, so they'll set up lots of

know, so they'll set up lots of sandboxes, do a lot of testing, and

sandboxes, do a lot of testing, and you're maybe not getting the deployment

you're maybe not getting the deployment that you want or you're not getting the

that you want or you're not getting the actual deals that you want. There's lots

actual deals that you want. There's lots of proof of concepts and lots of messing

of proof of concepts and lots of messing around. Um, but people are scared to

around. Um, but people are scared to make a decision. You imagine being a

make a decision. You imagine being a customer through through all of this

customer through through all of this stuff and you're trying to decide like,

stuff and you're trying to decide like, you know, should I spend 200 grand on a

you know, should I spend 200 grand on a SAS product right now and I'm not even

SAS product right now and I'm not even sure this stuff is going to look like

sure this stuff is going to look like anything in 2 years? like I'd just hold

anything in 2 years? like I'd just hold off on that. And a lot of companies are

off on that. And a lot of companies are just delaying these purchases and being

just delaying these purchases and being like, you know what, let's just wait and

like, you know what, let's just wait and see. Let's wait and see what it looks

see. Let's wait and see what it looks like next year, the year before. So, you

like next year, the year before. So, you know, or the year after because

know, or the year after because everything looks kind of risky. And so

everything looks kind of risky. And so if we're vendors in the middle of this

if we're vendors in the middle of this space, we're going to have to have one a

space, we're going to have to have one a good story

good story that is compelling for how even though

that is compelling for how even though the world is changing and even though we

the world is changing and even though we have these new tools, we're still going

have these new tools, we're still going to be around because the thing we do

to be around because the thing we do does that best does not go away. So for

does that best does not go away. So for example, if you if you listen to like I

example, if you if you listen to like I think Microsoft's got really great

think Microsoft's got really great positioning at right now in terms of the

positioning at right now in terms of the way Sachin Nadella talks about you know

way Sachin Nadella talks about you know there's there's the models and there's

there's there's the models and there's going to be lots of models like we're

going to be lots of models like we're going to support multiple models and

going to support multiple models and models are going to be a commodity like

models are going to be a commodity like there's just going to be all kinds of

there's just going to be all kinds of them and we're going to use different

them and we're going to use different models in different situations but the

models in different situations but the models are only as good as the business

models are only as good as the business context that you give them. Where does

context that you give them. Where does your business context live? lives in

your business context live? lives in email and documents and SharePoint and

email and documents and SharePoint and all the Microsoft stuff you have. And so

all the Microsoft stuff you have. And so it's a compelling view of the future

it's a compelling view of the future that says, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. All that

that says, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. All that stuff is happening. All this change is

stuff is happening. All this change is happening." But does how does that

happening." But does how does that impact Microsoft? It just makes us more

impact Microsoft? It just makes us more important, man. We become the center of

important, man. We become the center of the universe. Like that's the way that's

the universe. Like that's the way that's the way Microsoft tells the story right

the way Microsoft tells the story right now, which I think is very masterful.

now, which I think is very masterful. You can see other companies trying to

You can see other companies trying to navigate these waters, right? Like even

navigate these waters, right? Like even the AI native companies I'm working

the AI native companies I'm working with, you know, they have to deal with,

with, you know, they have to deal with, okay, I've got this thing and it's some

okay, I've got this thing and it's some kind of, you know, AI specifically for

kind of, you know, AI specifically for research. And then people say, well,

research. And then people say, well, wait a second, like Claude's got a AI

wait a second, like Claude's got a AI thing specifically for research. Like,

thing specifically for research. Like, does that mean you go away? Like, does

does that mean you go away? Like, does that mean eventually they wipe you out

that mean eventually they wipe you out because they're going to leaprog you at

because they're going to leaprog you at some point? And so you're going to have

some point? And so you're going to have to have a story around that, right? and

to have a story around that, right? and and you know, so it's it's not just the

and you know, so it's it's not just the SAS apocalypse, you know, the the

SAS apocalypse, you know, the the traditional SAS businesses that have to

traditional SAS businesses that have to worry about it. Even the folks that are

worry about it. Even the folks that are AI native that are coming in, it's, you

AI native that are coming in, it's, you know, it's a bit of like, well, wait a

know, it's a bit of like, well, wait a second. Like, how do how do I know you

second. Like, how do how do I know you don't just go away because you're kind

don't just go away because you're kind of new in town,

of new in town, right?

right? Like,

Like, yeah. No, it's the it's a so so like h

yeah. No, it's the it's a so so like h how do you kind of navigate the line?

how do you kind of navigate the line? and not not you but like these teams

and not not you but like these teams where you want to help someone make a

where you want to help someone make a good decision but you don't want to

good decision but you don't want to design the buying criteria just you know

design the buying criteria just you know by chance around your strengths like how

by chance around your strengths like how do you walk that line as a a sales

do you walk that line as a a sales so one so one I think you got to have a

so one so one I think you got to have a good story right so this and and it's

good story right so this and and it's the story not necessarily about like you

the story not necessarily about like you got to have a good story about your

got to have a good story about your product obviously right here's the value

product obviously right here's the value we deliver and here's why you should

we deliver and here's why you should pick us versus anybody else today but

pick us versus anybody else today but there's this worry that there's this

there's this worry that there's this existential threat that is maybe going

existential threat that is maybe going to wipe not just you but your entire

to wipe not just you but your entire class of solutions, you know, out. Then

class of solutions, you know, out. Then you got to have a you got to have a

you got to have a you got to have a vision for the future where that's not

vision for the future where that's not true. So you got to be able to come in

true. So you got to be able to come in and talk about here's the value, here's

and talk about here's the value, here's what we do and this will never be done

what we do and this will never be done by just the models themselves. Like

by just the models themselves. Like Anthropic is never going to do this and

Anthropic is never going to do this and here's why. So I got to have a good

here's why. So I got to have a good story for that.

story for that. And then and then there's all the other

And then and then there's all the other things you can do to make a deal less

things you can do to make a deal less risky for a customer. So, and this is,

risky for a customer. So, and this is, you know, old school stuff. It's it's I

you know, old school stuff. It's it's I The first few months are free, man. Try

The first few months are free, man. Try it out and see if you like it. And if

it out and see if you like it. And if you don't, you know, we're not going to

you don't, you know, we're not going to lock you in. We're not going to lock you

lock you in. We're not going to lock you into a long term. We're going to do

into a long term. We're going to do shorter term deals. We're going to break

shorter term deals. We're going to break the deal up into pieces. Don't flip

the deal up into pieces. Don't flip everybody over right now. We can just do

everybody over right now. We can just do this little department or this little

this little department or this little thing and we'll do it in stages. Um,

thing and we'll do it in stages. Um, this like staging a deal is often a

this like staging a deal is often a really good way to take risk off the

really good way to take risk off the table. you don't like to do it because

table. you don't like to do it because now the deal is smaller and it's spread

now the deal is smaller and it's spread out over time. But for customers, it's

out over time. But for customers, it's often a really good way to mitigate the

often a really good way to mitigate the risk to say, "Look, you're not going to

risk to say, "Look, you're not going to have to take the whole big bite. We can

have to take the whole big bite. We can just take little nibbles over the next

just take little nibbles over the next year and a half. We'll see how it goes."

year and a half. We'll see how it goes." Um, this is often good for lowering the

Um, this is often good for lowering the perceived risk of the deal. And then,

perceived risk of the deal. And then, but we we've always had this like, yeah,

but we we've always had this like, yeah, you know, I was I was having a

you know, I was I was having a conversation. I was at a trade show last

conversation. I was at a trade show last week and uh talking to a guy and I was

week and uh talking to a guy and I was telling him the story about how I worked

telling him the story about how I worked at this company and we sold stuff to

at this company and we sold stuff to investment banks and the first deal deal

investment banks and the first deal deal we did with a big investment bank they

we did with a big investment bank they were very worried because we were this

were very worried because we were this little wee company like you know 20

little wee company like you know 20 employees in Canada doing a thing we

employees in Canada doing a thing we didn't have any other investment banks

didn't have any other investment banks as clients yet like I think we had less

as clients yet like I think we had less than 2 million revenue and so we're

than 2 million revenue and so we're going to do this big deal with these

going to do this big deal with these guys and and they're big investment

guys and and they're big investment banks so they got like 9 million

banks so they got like 9 million lawyers. And so we were trying to make

lawyers. And so we were trying to make them feel comfortable about this deal.

them feel comfortable about this deal. And uh and uh and the guy said, "Well,

And uh and uh and the guy said, "Well, how'd you do it?" And I said, "We did

how'd you do it?" And I said, "We did the thing that you you would never do

the thing that you you would never do unless you were nuts," which was we did

unless you were nuts," which was we did a code escrow agreement. Don't hear

a code escrow agreement. Don't hear Don't hear those anymore.

Don't hear those anymore. No, no, you don't.

No, no, you don't. Worked out good for us in the end. Um

Worked out good for us in the end. Um worked out fine for us in the end, but I

worked out fine for us in the end, but I think, you know, I'm not sure the

think, you know, I'm not sure the investors completely knew what we were

investors completely knew what we were doing on that one. If they had it, they

doing on that one. If they had it, they would have had a heart attack.

would have had a heart attack. Do you remember whose idea that was?

Do you remember whose idea that was? Like to

Like to It was absolutely theirs.

It was absolutely theirs. Okay. Okay. Right. Yeah, that makes

Okay. Okay. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

sense. Yeah. Are you kidding? Yeah. Nobody on our

Are you kidding? Yeah. Nobody on our side would offered that up, but

side would offered that up, but I mean like so you see companies do

I mean like so you see companies do really I would never recommend that. But

really I would never recommend that. But I mean like everybody look at you with

I mean like everybody look at you with their eyes now going you did a what?

their eyes now going you did a what? Well, I mean moment in the company, but

Well, I mean moment in the company, but it speaks to your confidence. There's

it speaks to your confidence. There's usually easier ways to do it. Break the

usually easier ways to do it. Break the deal apart. Make the deal smaller. Money

deal apart. Make the deal smaller. Money back guarantee. Three months of

back guarantee. Three months of something, you know, hit such and such a

something, you know, hit such and such a target or you get your money back.

target or you get your money back. Things like that are usually easier to

Things like that are usually easier to pull off.

pull off. I think it's it also speaks to the

I think it's it also speaks to the confidence you have in your product when

confidence you have in your product when you're able to like shift the deal

you're able to like shift the deal structure to give the the buyer more

structure to give the the buyer more confidence that it's like you said, it's

confidence that it's like you said, it's going to be slow roll out versus like

going to be slow roll out versus like we're putting our money where our mouth

we're putting our money where our mouth is, right? like like you know we're

is, right? like like you know we're going to help do this thing. But yeah,

going to help do this thing. But yeah, right now I think all these tactics to

right now I think all these tactics to take the risk out of the deal or to

take the risk out of the deal or to attempt to take the risk out of the deal

attempt to take the risk out of the deal are really important. And then we really

are really important. And then we really got to hit the value. Like

got to hit the value. Like like a lot of these deals will just

like a lot of these deals will just end in no decision because the customer

end in no decision because the customer didn't really understand the value. Like

didn't really understand the value. Like they're like this sounds good but I

they're like this sounds good but I don't know man

don't know man or what if it you know what if it

or what if it you know what if it doesn't really work or you know they say

doesn't really work or you know they say that's valuable. Is it really going to

that's valuable. Is it really going to save us the money? You say it's going to

save us the money? You say it's going to like I don't know. Not really sure. I

like I don't know. Not really sure. I believe the value story on this.

believe the value story on this. Yeah. I think to your point earlier,

Yeah. I think to your point earlier, your numbers and proof have to match the

your numbers and proof have to match the story that you've been crafting.

story that you've been crafting. Totally. Yeah. And it's uh it it can be

Totally. Yeah. And it's uh it it can be a lost art now where a lot of stories

a lost art now where a lot of stories are being generated by LLMs and

are being generated by LLMs and sometimes they don't feel as human in

sometimes they don't feel as human in the sales meeting itself. Um so

the sales meeting itself. Um so yeah.

yeah. Yeah. I hope people

Yeah. I hope people I mean there's Yeah. like like

I mean there's Yeah. like like I don't see a lot of good stories about

I don't see a lot of good stories about differentiated value

differentiated value that doesn't that haven't been really

that doesn't that haven't been really worked hard by a team of people,

worked hard by a team of people, right?

right? Like you know there's a lot of good

Like you know there's a lot of good things you could do with these LLMs, but

things you could do with these LLMs, but a lot of what you get it kind of reverts

a lot of what you get it kind of reverts to the mean, right? And it just kind of

to the mean, right? And it just kind of reverts to this kind of nothing vanilla

reverts to this kind of nothing vanilla whatever. Like in stuff like this, you

whatever. Like in stuff like this, you got to come in opinionated,

got to come in opinionated, right? And come in opinionated and say,

right? And come in opinionated and say, "Look, the rest of the world looks like

"Look, the rest of the world looks like this, but we're like this." And it is

this, but we're like this." And it is very, very different, and this is what

very, very different, and this is what you're going to get with us that you're

you're going to get with us that you're not going to get with the other guys.

not going to get with the other guys. What you'll get when you're trying to,

What you'll get when you're trying to, you know, work these pitches or work

you know, work these pitches or work this positioning and and you're doing it

this positioning and and you're doing it just with the LLM as your thought

just with the LLM as your thought partner on this is it will tend to

partner on this is it will tend to revert to the mean. like it will tend to

revert to the mean. like it will tend to just smooth all the edges out to the

just smooth all the edges out to the point where you got a thing that's not

point where you got a thing that's not very compelling at all.

very compelling at all. You get you get you get oatmeal, I

You get you get you get oatmeal, I guess, if you do that.

guess, if you do that. Oatmeal,

Oatmeal, right? Right.

right? Right. If it's okay with entirely too many

If it's okay with entirely too many words,

words, right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. A a

right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. A a pot instead of a bowl. Right.

pot instead of a bowl. Right. Um if I can move you just into like a

Um if I can move you just into like a sort of rapid fire question if that's

sort of rapid fire question if that's okay with you. I just have four or five

okay with you. I just have four or five I want to run through. Um, the first one

I want to run through. Um, the first one is, what business belief have you

is, what business belief have you changed your mind about the most in the

changed your mind about the most in the last I originally wrote five years, but

last I originally wrote five years, but I'm going to say two years.

I'm going to say two years. Business belief that I've changed my

Business belief that I've changed my mind the most about

mind the most about I got to think about that. Um,

I got to think about that. Um, you know, at one point when I started

you know, at one point when I started doing positioning work, I didn't think I

doing positioning work, I didn't think I didn't think that when we built

didn't think that when we built positioning, we necessarily had to go

positioning, we necessarily had to go all the way through to the sales pitch

all the way through to the sales pitch part of that. So, when I started doing

part of that. So, when I started doing this work for years, I didn't do it. And

this work for years, I didn't do it. And then I and then I was forced to reckon

then I and then I was forced to reckon with if we did not take that positioning

with if we did not take that positioning with a cross functional team and

with a cross functional team and actually build the sales pitch, no one

actually build the sales pitch, no one would build it. it would never get

would build it. it would never get built.

built. And I thought that was a thing that

And I thought that was a thing that sales people learned. Like, you know,

sales people learned. Like, you know, sales people do all this training like

sales people do all this training like medic, medic, sander, tail training, all

medic, medic, sander, tail training, all that stuff. And I'm like, don't they

that stuff. And I'm like, don't they teach them that?

teach them that? Like, and so I thought if the sales

Like, and so I thought if the sales executive team understood the value and

executive team understood the value and what it was, whatever else, this pitch

what it was, whatever else, this pitch would sort of sort itself out. And it

would sort of sort itself out. And it really does not. It does not. It never

really does not. It does not. It never does. Even if the team is really

does. Even if the team is really talented, I don't know what it is. it

talented, I don't know what it is. it just doesn't. And so that was the thing

just doesn't. And so that was the thing that I had to change in my business was

that I had to change in my business was like, you know, I didn't want to become

like, you know, I didn't want to become the sales pitch lady. But if we didn't

the sales pitch lady. But if we didn't go all the way out to building a really

go all the way out to building a really compelling sales story, this thing would

compelling sales story, this thing would die in the interstitial space between

die in the interstitial space between marketing and sales. Like, you know,

marketing and sales. Like, you know, somewhere over the wall, halfway between

somewhere over the wall, halfway between marketing and sales, the story would

marketing and sales, the story would completely change. And the poor customer

completely change. And the poor customer was like, "What? I heard this all the

was like, "What? I heard this all the way through the funnel and now I'm over

way through the funnel and now I'm over on this side and there's this completely

on this side and there's this completely different story happening here." So

different story happening here." So certainly changed my mind about that.

certainly changed my mind about that. Yeah. I mean it shows the power you you

Yeah. I mean it shows the power you you have to build a bridge and sometimes

have to build a bridge and sometimes install it too.

install it too. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Right.

Right. Um my next question is um what's one

Um my next question is um what's one thing in the market or a category or

thing in the market or a category or just really anything that you're

just really anything that you're studying purely because it's interesting

studying purely because it's interesting to you? Um, so

to you? Um, so what's really interesting to me right

what's really interesting to me right now in the conversations I'm having with

now in the conversations I'm having with um with companies, it's like I'm really

um with companies, it's like I'm really interested in how enterprise buyers are

interested in how enterprise buyers are navigating this thing. That is very

navigating this thing. That is very interesting to me.

interesting to me. So like go ahead. like like the p

So like go ahead. like like the p there's a perception that there are

there's a perception that there are companies

companies like you know the buyers of AI stuff are

like you know the buyers of AI stuff are either

either you know completely all in on AI and

you know completely all in on AI and just racing towards the AI future as

just racing towards the AI future as fast as they can or they're lites

fast as they can or they're lites they're no good they're stupid basically

they're no good they're stupid basically they're stupid they're too stupid to get

they're stupid they're too stupid to get it and they need and if only they need

it and they need and if only they need education like somebody just needs to

education like somebody just needs to educate them because they're too dumb

educate them because they're too dumb and if because if they were smart they'd

and if because if they were smart they'd be doing this race towards whatever. Um

be doing this race towards whatever. Um and that's not what I see in you know in

and that's not what I see in you know in the work I do and whenever we get

the work I do and whenever we get yakking about customers I think

yakking about customers I think everybody's trying to figure this stuff

everybody's trying to figure this stuff out and I think even the companies that

out and I think even the companies that are holding back on it a little bit are

are holding back on it a little bit are doing a lot of experimentation

doing a lot of experimentation internally and doing a lot of deep

internally and doing a lot of deep thinking about how does compliance work

thinking about how does compliance work with this? How do we do security with

with this? How do we do security with this? like we want to do it, but how do

this? like we want to do it, but how do we do it in a way that doesn't risk the

we do it in a way that doesn't risk the entire business? And so this I think is

entire business? And so this I think is going to be really interesting to see

going to be really interesting to see how this evolves. Um, I also think

how this evolves. Um, I also think there's been a lot of um like I've on

there's been a lot of um like I've on the on the the capability of these AI

the on the the capability of these AI products. There's been a lot of

products. There's been a lot of overpromising and underd delivering

overpromising and underd delivering where the companies have come in really

where the companies have come in really hard and pitch this stuff like it's

hard and pitch this stuff like it's magic magic and it's all singing all

magic magic and it's all singing all dancing and does all these things and

dancing and does all these things and then the companies try it out and the

then the companies try it out and the companies are a bit like what you know

companies are a bit like what you know there's all these things that it won't

there's all these things that it won't do and doesn't do or does badly and

do and doesn't do or does badly and there's all these things and so there's

there's all these things and so there's a wave of customers have been kind of

a wave of customers have been kind of burnt by companies have come in and

burnt by companies have come in and overpromised the value and they've just

overpromised the value and they've just not been able to see the efficiency that

not been able to see the efficiency that was promised. the value that was

was promised. the value that was promised. Um, we're seeing it in the

promised. Um, we're seeing it in the market right now where at one point

market right now where at one point there was this, you know, this this

there was this, you know, this this overwhelming narrative around job

overwhelming narrative around job replacement, right?

replacement, right? And then we're seeing everybody pull

And then we're seeing everybody pull back on that narrative around job

back on that narrative around job replacement. So, it's like, okay, well,

replacement. So, it's like, okay, well, if it's not job replacement, then what

if it's not job replacement, then what exactly is it and how do we talk about

exactly is it and how do we talk about that? like you know so it's so it's not

that? like you know so it's so it's not only that the capabilities of the of the

only that the capabilities of the of the technology are changing the story around

technology are changing the story around these things has been shifting rapidly

these things has been shifting rapidly depending on you know exactly where

depending on you know exactly where we're at and so this is going to be

we're at and so this is going to be interesting to follow

interesting to follow right so a lot like part of it is I

right so a lot like part of it is I guess just a personal interest to see

guess just a personal interest to see how narratives shape across like a wide

how narratives shape across like a wide surface area because the I think the the

surface area because the I think the the labs were really purporting this idea

labs were really purporting this idea that all our jobs will be gone in like

that all our jobs will be gone in like two or three years conveniently, right?

two or three years conveniently, right? Like coming from there and the reality

Like coming from there and the reality is often different. Um my next question

is often different. Um my next question for you was

for you was what's your reaction? Um this is like I

what's your reaction? Um this is like I had to ask you this one. What's your

had to ask you this one. What's your reaction to having your positioning work

reaction to having your positioning work and probably your thinking and some of

and probably your thinking and some of your content out there packaged up into

your content out there packaged up into a claude skill and being used?

a claude skill and being used? There's so there's so much of this like

There's so there's so much of this like there's tons of it.

there's tons of it. Um it's okay. Like some of it I think is

Um it's okay. Like some of it I think is some of it I think is good, right?

some of it I think is good, right? Because I think there's, you know, I

Because I think there's, you know, I like to think that my stuff is helpful

like to think that my stuff is helpful to people, right? So they're good ideas.

to people, right? So they're good ideas. They're out in the world. Do with them

They're out in the world. Do with them what you may like, go out there, do your

what you may like, go out there, do your thing.

thing. Yeah.

Yeah. Um

Um sometimes I worry that it's giving

sometimes I worry that it's giving people this kind of false sense of

people this kind of false sense of confidence like, you know, we took all

confidence like, you know, we took all the things, we put it in a clawed skill,

the things, we put it in a clawed skill, so it's going to always give us the

so it's going to always give us the right answers on things. And so the

right answers on things. And so the output we're going to get from this is

output we're going to get from this is going to be great. And often the output

going to be great. And often the output you get is terrible because

you get is terrible because the methodology is one thing but the

the methodology is one thing but the inputs to the methodology are another.

inputs to the methodology are another. So for example, if I'm thinking about

So for example, if I'm thinking about and I've seen this in some of these

and I've seen this in some of these clawed skills that people have built

clawed skills that people have built like like step number one, if you didn't

like like step number one, if you didn't exist, what would a customer do?

exist, what would a customer do? How do I get that answer? Do you think I

How do I get that answer? Do you think I could just Google that?

could just Google that? No, of course not.

No, of course not. Of course not.

Of course not. Yeah,

Yeah, of course not. Right. Of course not.

of course not. Right. Of course not. Like again we're doing enterprise

Like again we're doing enterprise software. We know like even inside

software. We know like even inside companies we're having a debate about

companies we're having a debate about what goes on the short list and what

what goes on the short list and what doesn't. So if that's wrong, the answer

doesn't. So if that's wrong, the answer you gave it was wrong.

you gave it was wrong. Everything downhill from that is wrong.

Everything downhill from that is wrong. The whole thing is wrong. The whole

The whole thing is wrong. The whole thing's garbage.

thing's garbage. Smoosh it up and throw it in the bin,

Smoosh it up and throw it in the bin, people.

people. Like so you you know, so sometimes I

Like so you you know, so sometimes I feel like all of this is a distraction,

feel like all of this is a distraction, right? Right. And what people want is

right? Right. And what people want is they want an easy button. Like I'm just

they want an easy button. Like I'm just going to press the button. I know,

going to press the button. I know, package it up in a cloud skill or just

package it up in a cloud skill or just press the button and whoop,

press the button and whoop, positioning's done. Great. I don't have

positioning's done. Great. I don't have to think about it. It's just done. And

to think about it. It's just done. And it's like, I don't see any good

it's like, I don't see any good positioning coming out of that. None.

positioning coming out of that. None. Zero.

Zero. Yeah.

Yeah. Zero good positioning is going to come

Zero good positioning is going to come out of that. None. And so that piece of

out of that. None. And so that piece of it, I'm a bit like, you know, like

it, I'm a bit like, you know, like there's so many things that we can do

there's so many things that we can do with these AI tools that are amazing,

with these AI tools that are amazing, right? To speed things up, to make

right? To speed things up, to make things happen on the execution side in

things happen on the execution side in particular, right? To do a bunch of crap

particular, right? To do a bunch of crap that was just a pain in the ass and

that was just a pain in the ass and taking all our time that, you know, I'd

taking all our time that, you know, I'd be happy to give the machines that task,

be happy to give the machines that task, but we still got to do the thinking.

but we still got to do the thinking. Yes. Right.

Yes. Right. We still got to do the thinking and

We still got to do the thinking and great positioning. You know, I can't

great positioning. You know, I can't just ask the internet how to how my

just ask the internet how to how my thing should be positioned. Like, if we

thing should be positioned. Like, if we could do that, we'd been done we could

could do that, we'd been done we could have done that 20 years ago. We didn't

have done that 20 years ago. We didn't need AI tool to do that. So, I don't

need AI tool to do that. So, I don't know. So that piece of it makes me a

know. So that piece of it makes me a little bit like, oh, and then the other

little bit like, oh, and then the other thing is like I can't believe that

thing is like I can't believe that people don't understand how copyright

people don't understand how copyright law works. Like,

law works. Like, no. That's

no. That's Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Like the number of people a day that

Like the number of people a day that will come and say, I built this whole

will come and say, I built this whole thing and I did it by scraping all your

thing and I did it by scraping all your books and doing all these things and

books and doing all these things and doing this thing and could you endorse

doing this thing and could you endorse it? I plan to sell it for 500 bucks a

it? I plan to sell it for 500 bucks a seat. I'm like,

seat. I'm like, is that right, D? Wow, that's that's

is that right, D? Wow, that's that's very bold. Yeah, that's very bold.

very bold. Yeah, that's very bold. But they don't even get like it's never

But they don't even get like it's never occurred to them that that's they

occurred to them that that's they shouldn't do that. And so I do think

shouldn't do that. And so I do think that the bad behavior of the big LLMs,

that the bad behavior of the big LLMs, you know, where they've just stole a lot

you know, where they've just stole a lot of stole a lot of stuff and then just

of stole a lot of stuff and then just decided we're going to fight the

decided we're going to fight the lawsuits afterwards, right?

lawsuits afterwards, right? Um has kind of encouraged some bad

Um has kind of encouraged some bad behavior across the board. And I wonder

behavior across the board. And I wonder what happens in a, you know, in the

what happens in a, you know, in the world five, ten years from now if

world five, ten years from now if someone has a really smart idea about

someone has a really smart idea about something,

something, do they bother putting it in a book at

do they bother putting it in a book at all? Do they do they share with people

all? Do they do they share with people at all? Like because I I don't know and

at all? Like because I I don't know and I don't know what the answer of that

I don't know what the answer of that like I fundamentally believe that, you

like I fundamentally believe that, you know, if you're smart about something,

know, if you're smart about something, you got a smart idea about something,

you got a smart idea about something, you let it free and the benefit comes

you let it free and the benefit comes back to you somehow.

back to you somehow. And I think that's been true up until

And I think that's been true up until now. But I don't know, is it still true?

now. But I don't know, is it still true? Like, did you read this Tim Ferrris

Like, did you read this Tim Ferrris thing where he said, "How two books are

thing where he said, "How two books are done?" You know, we Yeah. can't we can't

done?" You know, we Yeah. can't we can't write books like that anymore because

write books like that anymore because you can just ask the ask the chatbot the

you can just ask the ask the chatbot the question, it will answer it. And I'm

question, it will answer it. And I'm like, "Yeah."

like, "Yeah." Yeah. I I think I think it's like to

Yeah. I I think I think it's like to your point earlier, whatever you write

your point earlier, whatever you write down is an artifact of your thinking at

down is an artifact of your thinking at the time you write it down, but then

the time you write it down, but then when you actually implement it, it

when you actually implement it, it changes in practice, right? Like,

changes in practice, right? Like, well, it's very hard to do in practice,

well, it's very hard to do in practice, right? It's very hard to do. Like the

right? It's very hard to do. Like the methodology is just kind of giving you a

methodology is just kind of giving you a road map but

road map but in that road map there are a thousand

in that road map there are a thousand decisions and each of those decision

decisions and each of those decision requires judgment

requires judgment right

right and it's and it's it's it's judgment by

and it's and it's it's it's judgment by a room full of experts right it's

a room full of experts right it's judgment by bringing my head of sales

judgment by bringing my head of sales head of marketing head of product CEO

head of marketing head of product CEO founders together in a room making a

founders together in a room making a call on it because if if I put those if

call on it because if if I put those if I again that first step of the process

I again that first step of the process if you didn't exist what would a

if you didn't exist what would a customer do? If I went and asked each of

customer do? If I went and asked each of those groups separately that question, I

those groups separately that question, I would get different answers. Even at a

would get different answers. Even at a company that's doing 100 million

company that's doing 100 million revenue, I would get different answers

revenue, I would get different answers to that question. So, who's right?

to that question. So, who's right? Mhm.

Mhm. Who's right? And like this is this is

Who's right? And like this is this is where this, you know, right now the

where this, you know, right now the fancy word that everybody likes is

fancy word that everybody likes is taste, which I think is a terrible way

taste, which I think is a terrible way to talk about it. But it's this

to talk about it. But it's this judgment. It's this judgment based on

judgment. It's this judgment based on our experience and based on knowing how

our experience and based on knowing how this thing comes together. And you know

this thing comes together. And you know where we are getting the benefit of

where we are getting the benefit of everybody's thinking

everybody's thinking and then maybe we have you know somebody

and then maybe we have you know somebody like me who's done 300 400 of these

like me who's done 300 400 of these things can come in and has the judgment

things can come in and has the judgment to say ah but that's not really true is

to say ah but that's not really true is it and and you have you thought about

it and and you have you thought about this thing and what about that thing so

this thing and what about that thing so that we can get to a point where we're

that we can get to a point where we're all in agreement.

all in agreement. Mhm. And then to have somebody from the

Mhm. And then to have somebody from the outside look at it that knows what good

outside look at it that knows what good looks like that can say actually no like

looks like that can say actually no like any of your competitors could say that.

any of your competitors could say that. So there's nothing differentiated about

So there's nothing differentiated about it. Like that kind of stuff does not go

it. Like that kind of stuff does not go away. Like we are still going to have to

away. Like we are still going to have to we are still going to have to make we're

we are still going to have to make we're still going to have to deeply understand

still going to have to deeply understand customers and not just by looking at

customers and not just by looking at what they say online, right?

what they say online, right? actually having actually understanding

actually having actually understanding how they make decisions, how they move

how they make decisions, how they move through a purchase process. And then

through a purchase process. And then we're going to have to deeply understand

we're going to have to deeply understand our own technology, how it relates to

our own technology, how it relates to everybody else's technology, and then,

everybody else's technology, and then, you know, and then apply this process to

you know, and then apply this process to it. But the process is almost like I

it. But the process is almost like I mean, it's way better not having a

mean, it's way better not having a process like this is why my process

process like this is why my process exists. But the process in itself isn't

exists. But the process in itself isn't the magic.

the magic. Yeah. I I I think to your earlier point,

Yeah. I I I think to your earlier point, people are using this idea of taste and

people are using this idea of taste and judgment. But to acquire taste and

judgment. But to acquire taste and judgment, you have to experience like

judgment, you have to experience like gain experience and and actually like

gain experience and and actually like sample the world and talk to customers

sample the world and talk to customers and be in there. I think that's uh

and be in there. I think that's uh I'm not saying it's missed, but I'm

I'm not saying it's missed, but I'm saying it's not something you like to

saying it's not something you like to your point, you can't just package it up

your point, you can't just package it up and throw it into a scale and all of a

and throw it into a scale and all of a sudden it it lives in the world.

sudden it it lives in the world. Yeah. Like it doesn't, right? It

Yeah. Like it doesn't, right? It doesn't. So, I do think the idea like I

doesn't. So, I do think the idea like I do I I personally don't see a ton of

do I I personally don't see a ton of value in having a skill and all it does

value in having a skill and all it does is walk you through the steps like this

is walk you through the steps like this is dumb.

is dumb. Like I'm just like this is dumb. Like

Like I'm just like this is dumb. Like I've got like a thousand of them. People

I've got like a thousand of them. People are like this is so great. I've got this

are like this is so great. I've got this skill and I'm like dude all it does is

skill and I'm like dude all it does is walk you through the steps and there's

walk you through the steps and there's only five.

only five. Yeah,

Yeah, it's funny. True.

it's funny. True. Why did you spend all that time when you

Why did you spend all that time when you could have just photocopied that page of

could have just photocopied that page of the book like

the book like Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Put it on

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Put it on your wall and just reference it. Yeah.

your wall and just reference it. Yeah. Exactly. I didn't need a skill. This is

Exactly. I didn't need a skill. This is not a skill.

not a skill. Yeah.

Yeah. In my opinion. But go ahead. I think

In my opinion. But go ahead. I think right I think right now people are like

right I think right now people are like messing around with skills, right? So

messing around with skills, right? So they're just building little skills on

they're just building little skills on things just as personal projects just

things just as personal projects just cuz it's fun.

cuz it's fun. Yeah. I mean it it reminds me This is

Yeah. I mean it it reminds me This is just like going very long time ago to my

just like going very long time ago to my childhood, but it reminds me of the

childhood, but it reminds me of the scouts badges. Like it's just like every

scouts badges. Like it's just like every like I get on some calls, people like I

like I get on some calls, people like I have 57 skills set up. I'm like okay

have 57 skills set up. I'm like okay amazing. Like like tell me how Yeah.

amazing. Like like tell me how Yeah. What do they do for you? And

What do they do for you? And Yeah. Like I don't think I don't think

Yeah. Like I don't think I don't think people are necessarily scrutinizing like

people are necessarily scrutinizing like does this skill have any value? Like

does this skill have any value? Like what are we actually going to do with

what are we actually going to do with this skill that we couldn't just do?

this skill that we couldn't just do? Yeah.

Yeah. Without it.

Without it. Totally. Yeah.

Totally. Yeah. So there's a lot of that. But I don't

So there's a lot of that. But I don't know. I don't know. The other one I get

know. I don't know. The other one I get a lot is people tell me, "Oh, we've got

a lot is people tell me, "Oh, we've got a we've got a, you know, April GPT, you

a we've got a, you know, April GPT, you know, so we we fed it all the things."

know, so we we fed it all the things." And there's a, you know, there's a lot

And there's a, you know, there's a lot of content. Like, I've been doing this a

of content. Like, I've been doing this a long time.

long time. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, there's a lot of content to feed

And so, there's a lot of content to feed it.

it. And so, I expect those to get pretty

And so, I expect those to get pretty good at some point that you could ask it

good at some point that you could ask it a question and it would actually answer

a question and it would actually answer what I would answer because I get asked

what I would answer because I get asked the same questions over and over again.

the same questions over and over again. Yeah.

Yeah. But I'm still amazed at the amount of

But I'm still amazed at the amount of hallucination going on in those. Like

hallucination going on in those. Like I'm shocked actually at how it'll get

I'm shocked actually at how it'll get like four or five questions in a row

like four or five questions in a row right and I'm like this is pretty good

right and I'm like this is pretty good and then it'll say something that I'm

and then it'll say something that I'm like my dude never in a million years

like my dude never in a million years would April say that.

would April say that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. April would say the opposite of that.

April would say the opposite of that. April would say never do that.

April would say never do that. Totally. I think it's Yeah. the the

Totally. I think it's Yeah. the the ability to hold.

ability to hold. I expect that I expect those to get

I expect that I expect those to get really good like especially for somebody

really good like especially for somebody like me that's been doing this a really

like me that's been doing this a really long time. There's a lot of content.

long time. There's a lot of content. There's a lot of my thinking out on the

There's a lot of my thinking out on the web. You scrape it, throw it in there

web. You scrape it, throw it in there and like go nuts. I expect that to get

and like go nuts. I expect that to get and and they have vastly improved from

and and they have vastly improved from where they were like a few years ago. Oh

where they were like a few years ago. Oh my gosh. The first one I ever saw, the

my gosh. The first one I ever saw, the guy sent it to me. He said, "This is

guy sent it to me. He said, "This is amazing. You can ask it questions and

amazing. You can ask it questions and it'll answer exactly like it's you." And

it'll answer exactly like it's you." And I was like, "Okay."

I was like, "Okay." Right. Yeah. So I put it in there and I

Right. Yeah. So I put it in there and I said, "How would April Dunford

said, "How would April Dunford reposition HubSpot?" And it said, "The

reposition HubSpot?" And it said, "The first thing April Dunford would do is

first thing April Dunford would do is she would create a positioning

she would create a positioning statement." Now, this is hilarious to me

statement." Now, this is hilarious to me because I have a whole chapter in the

because I have a whole chapter in the book saying why you should never do a

book saying why you should never do a positioning statement. Like I have

positioning statement. Like I have positioned positioning statements as my

positioned positioning statements as my enemy like since I started talking about

enemy like since I started talking about positioning.

positioning. That's right. Yeah.

That's right. Yeah. Because this thing is trained on the

Because this thing is trained on the world and the world does positioning

world and the world does positioning with a positioning statement. It just

with a positioning statement. It just assumes whoever the hell April Dunford

assumes whoever the hell April Dunford is, she'd be doing that, too.

is, she'd be doing that, too. Oh my goodness.

Oh my goodness. Now, it doesn't do that anymore. Now,

Now, it doesn't do that anymore. Now, the ones they send me, it's way smarter.

the ones they send me, it's way smarter. They're way smarter. Like, it'll But but

They're way smarter. Like, it'll But but they usually get something kind of

they usually get something kind of critical wrong. Like, it'll throw in a

critical wrong. Like, it'll throw in a random step. Like, it'll just throw in a

random step. Like, it'll just throw in a random step. Like, and then you would go

random step. Like, and then you would go do this validation phase. And I'm like,

do this validation phase. And I'm like, validating what exactly? Like, I mean,

validating what exactly? Like, I mean, you be like, look down the thing. But

you be like, look down the thing. But it's close enough that I think Yeah.

it's close enough that I think Yeah. Yeah. 70% 70% there maybe.

Yeah. 70% 70% there maybe. Is there a future where you create one?

Is there a future where you create one? Well, if they got really good then yeah

Well, if they got really good then yeah like one of these like they you know I

like one of these like they you know I get I don't have to create them because

get I don't have to create them because there are armies of people creating them

there are armies of people creating them and they send them to me and one of

and they send them to me and one of these days one's going to land in my

these days one's going to land in my inbox and I'm going to go there it is.

inbox and I'm going to go there it is. Fair enough.

Fair enough. There it is. Put that sucker on the

There it is. Put that sucker on the website. It's going to be great. But

website. It's going to be great. But I've never had one yet that I wasn't

I've never had one yet that I wasn't like, "Ooh, if it said that and it was

like, "Ooh, if it said that and it was on my website, I'd feel really bad."

on my website, I'd feel really bad." Like, because it's it's giving you what

Like, because it's it's giving you what I would consider really bad advice. So,

I would consider really bad advice. So, I've not seen one yet. But I do think I

I've not seen one yet. But I do think I don't see why it doesn't exist. I like

don't see why it doesn't exist. I like this doesn't seem like it would be such

this doesn't seem like it would be such a hard problem.

a hard problem. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. It's one of these things

I don't know. It's one of these things like how the things can't count how many

like how the things can't count how many e are in the word 17. Like it should be

e are in the word 17. Like it should be easy, but it for some reason it doesn't

easy, but it for some reason it doesn't do that. So,

do that. So, I know. I know. There's a famous uh car

I know. I know. There's a famous uh car wash thing they did where they're like,

wash thing they did where they're like, "Should I wash my car when it's raining

"Should I wash my car when it's raining and then it can't figure out where to

and then it can't figure out where to go?"

go?" Doesn't know.

Doesn't know. Yeah. The final question.

Yeah. The final question. There's some things like that that I

There's some things like that that I that I just think whatever. But I also

that I just think whatever. But I also kind of think like, you know, everything

kind of think like, you know, everything I know is written in two books. Those

I know is written in two books. Those books are pretty short,

books are pretty short, right? Like if you've read them, these

right? Like if you've read them, these are not long books. And you have audio

are not long books. And you have audio books now and you can listen to it on

books now and you can listen to it on like two times speed. Like you could go

like two times speed. Like you could go walk the dog for a couple hours and

walk the dog for a couple hours and essentially get everything you would get

essentially get everything you would get out of that chat. And I'm not exactly

out of that chat. And I'm not exactly sure

sure what what the chat answers are going to

what what the chat answers are going to give you beyond that. Maybe a little bit

give you beyond that. Maybe a little bit of color on some stuff. I don't know. I

of color on some stuff. I don't know. I think it's I'm still I'm still kind of

think it's I'm still I'm still kind of mulling over what's the value. So you

mulling over what's the value. So you got the April GPT like

got the April GPT like I think it's what you said earlier.

I think it's what you said earlier. People want the easy button of it

People want the easy button of it consumes everything you put out there

consumes everything you put out there and then it also deres the answer.

and then it also deres the answer. Right. Yeah. Right.

Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And like I think it does like I think

And like I think it does like I think these things do do a decent job of

these things do do a decent job of things like that like like if you asked

things like that like like if you asked it a question now although I stumped I

it a question now although I stumped I stumped the chump last week on this one

stumped the chump last week on this one but I but I got one last week and I

but I but I got one last week and I asked it how would how would you

asked it how would how would you position if you had multiple products

position if you had multiple products like how would you do that? Uh, and it

like how would you do that? Uh, and it and it had no idea. But but I've talked

and it had no idea. But but I've talked about that enough times. It should know

about that enough times. It should know the answer to that question. Like

the answer to that question. Like probably 40 podcasts I've answered that

probably 40 podcasts I've answered that question. So why doesn't it know that?

question. So why doesn't it know that? That's a very That is a very good

That's a very That is a very good question. Yeah. Like

question. Yeah. Like what's inside the black box that can't

what's inside the black box that can't grab that piece? Yeah.

grab that piece? Yeah. Yeah. I don't understand.

Yeah. I don't understand. I don't understand. I'm like that's a

I don't understand. I'm like that's a question I get a lot. So it should be

question I get a lot. So it should be able to just blur that out.

able to just blur that out. Yeah. And then sometimes it'll get a

Yeah. And then sometimes it'll get a question like that, right? And then

question like that, right? And then something really basic it'll say no. So

something really basic it'll say no. So again, like I expect these to be able to

again, like I expect these to be able to work pretty well at some point.

work pretty well at some point. Yeah.

Yeah. And then they would and then it would be

And then they would and then it would be a nice companion to the books, right?

a nice companion to the books, right? Like so you'd have the books and then

Like so you'd have the books and then you'd have this little thing. I got some

you'd have this little thing. I got some niche little question. Maybe I forgot

niche little question. Maybe I forgot where it was in the book or whatever. Or

where it was in the book or whatever. Or it's, you know, it was maybe something I

it's, you know, it was maybe something I yak about on podcast that isn't

yak about on podcast that isn't necessarily in the book. It'll come out

necessarily in the book. It'll come out again. It's not going to fix your

again. It's not going to fix your positioning for you, but it might answer

positioning for you, but it might answer your weird esoteric positioning

your weird esoteric positioning question.

question. Yes. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. And I think there's value in that.

And I think there's value in that. I think I think it'll you'll only crack

I think I think it'll you'll only crack this uh April GPT when April creates the

this uh April GPT when April creates the GPT. I'm going to say that just because

GPT. I'm going to say that just because I I think that

I I think that I mean maybe. Yeah.

I mean maybe. Yeah. But I'm I'd be doing the same thing all

But I'm I'd be doing the same thing all these guys are doing. It's not like

these guys are doing. It's not like these guys are dumb. Like these are like

these guys are dumb. Like these are like ex Google people coming to me and saying

ex Google people coming to me and saying we built this thing. Like

we built this thing. Like they're not the same way they are.

they're not the same way they are. But they're not you though, right? The

But they're not you though, right? The refinement would come from you.

refinement would come from you. I guess that's true.

I guess that's true. Yeah. My my my final question for you,

Yeah. My my my final question for you, this is a personal question. In this

this is a personal question. In this very noisy age, what do you do

very noisy age, what do you do personally to keep your mind quiet? Like

personally to keep your mind quiet? Like just to quiet your mind.

just to quiet your mind. Well, so there's a few things like I

Well, so there's a few things like I spend an awful less a lot less time on

spend an awful less a lot less time on social media than I used to. Mainly

social media than I used to. Mainly because I don't think there's good

because I don't think there's good social media anymore. Like I I used to

social media anymore. Like I I used to find Twitter a really valuable source of

find Twitter a really valuable source of just thoughtprovoking ideas and it's I

just thoughtprovoking ideas and it's I find it too noisy now. Um and then I

find it too noisy now. Um and then I used to find LinkedIn fun as a place to,

used to find LinkedIn fun as a place to, you know, follow some people that I had

you know, follow some people that I had some good thinking that were doing some

some good thinking that were doing some good thinking, but also just kind of

good thinking, but also just kind of keep up on where's everybody at and

keep up on where's everybody at and what's everybody doing. But man, it's

what's everybody doing. But man, it's noisy over there now. like and so I I

noisy over there now. like and so I I don't spend nearly as much time over

don't spend nearly as much time over there.

there. And then all the things that have sort

And then all the things that have sort of popped up to potentially replace

of popped up to potentially replace things like Instagram and whatever, I

things like Instagram and whatever, I don't find any of them are particularly

don't find any of them are particularly high signal. So I've kind of moved to

high signal. So I've kind of moved to newsletters and things like that for

newsletters and things like that for things that I'm interested in following.

things that I'm interested in following. And then

And then and then yeah, I do a lot of stuff that

and then yeah, I do a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with tech, right? Like

has nothing to do with tech, right? Like I read a lot of books, training for a

I read a lot of books, training for a half marathon right now. I, you know,

half marathon right now. I, you know, it's the end of summer here in Canada

it's the end of summer here in Canada and I spent most of the summer at my

and I spent most of the summer at my cottage kaying. Like I think it's good

cottage kaying. Like I think it's good to touch grass a little, man.

to touch grass a little, man. Yeah. No, I think I think that's I think

Yeah. No, I think I think that's I think that's phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah. Like

that's phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah. Like like it's a really it's it's a very

like it's a really it's it's a very noisy market we're in right now and um

noisy market we're in right now and um and it it's hyperbolic, right? There's

and it it's hyperbolic, right? There's just a lot of big proclamations and big

just a lot of big proclamations and big things and I think people are trying to

things and I think people are trying to get heard above the noise. People have

get heard above the noise. People have to be deliberately provocative right

to be deliberately provocative right now. And you can see how that'd be very

now. And you can see how that'd be very anxietyprovoking, right? That any every

anxietyprovoking, right? That any every time you open up LinkedIn, it's like,

time you open up LinkedIn, it's like, "Oh my god, your job is going away and

"Oh my god, your job is going away and you need to do these 15 things or else

you need to do these 15 things or else you're all gonna die." You know, like

you're all gonna die." You know, like Yeah. You know, and then and then we

Yeah. You know, and then and then we literally have this, you know, the

literally have this, you know, the machines are gonna kill us all in the

machines are gonna kill us all in the next five years and you're like, "What?

next five years and you're like, "What? Really?" Like if you spend all day

Really?" Like if you spend all day trying to pay attention to that stuff,

trying to pay attention to that stuff, you might make yourself crazy.

you might make yourself crazy. Yeah, you're you're so right. And and I

Yeah, you're you're so right. And and I hope people take that for stock like to

hope people take that for stock like to do something challenging physically and

do something challenging physically and quiet every day if you can. If it's

quiet every day if you can. If it's grass, water, ashalt, whatever it is.

grass, water, ashalt, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Cuz like you're you're a

You're right. Cuz like you're you're a Toronto native, right?

Toronto native, right? Yes.

Yes. You know the like it's sometimes

You know the like it's sometimes LinkedIn is like standing at Young and

LinkedIn is like standing at Young and Dundas Square and just hearing the bell

Dundas Square and just hearing the bell and the sign all day long in your face.

and the sign all day long in your face. So,

So, exactly.

exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You got to find a quieter

Yeah. Yeah. You got to find a quieter place.

place. Yeah. Exactly. And like in is is Young

Yeah. Exactly. And like in is is Young and Dundas reality. It ain't, man.

and Dundas reality. It ain't, man. One noisy little corner.

One noisy little corner. Yeah. And if you're Yeah. Same thing

Yeah. And if you're Yeah. Same thing goes for Time Square and all these other

goes for Time Square and all these other places worldwide. So,

places worldwide. So, well, this is it. This is it. So, things

well, this is it. This is it. So, things are very, very noisy. And I don't think